446.1 — WHO ‘OWNS’ WHOM?


 Conquest has a releasing effect on him. He can move on. Mission accomplished.

Not so for her. Sex together, skin to skin, has a hormone-driven bonding effect on her.

He’s in the free, conquest dissolved. She’s up a tree, emotionally involved. The one with nothing to lose ‘owns’ the other.

59 Comments

Filed under courtship

59 responses to “446.1 — WHO ‘OWNS’ WHOM?

  1. Laurie

    I think this comes under the heading of “wishful thinking” by the author of this blog. It seems that you view relationships between men and women as “win-lose” rather than “win-win.” In your worldview, someone always has the “upper hand” — either the woman has the upper hand by tantalizing the man with sex but not giving it to him, or the man has the upper hand by sleeping with the woman and then moving on while she pines away from him.

    I don’t really understand why any man or woman with such an adversarial view of relationships would ever want to get involved with a member of the opposite sex. If that were really how it is, I would stay happily single, thank you very much.

    Fortunately, sex and love can be win-win. Sex can be about MUTUAL pleasure rather than who is getting the upper hand on whom. Marriage can be about MUTUAL love and support, not about who is wearing the pants in the family.

    Sure, if you sleep with someone before a commitment, both you and your partner have to accept that it may be a one-time thing and that the other person may want to move on. Sometimes, it is the woman who just wants a fling. Sometimes it is the man. Sometimes it is both. If you aren’t comfortable with that, then don’t have sex before marriage. But this is just common sense, not some sort of perverse power men have over women.

    Calling your female commenters “lady this” and “lady that” doesn’t do much to disguise how misogynist your blog is. You like the idea of women being dominated or hurt by men when they are too uppity or try to exercise sexual freedom, and you like wagging your finger at women for getting out of hand.

    Maybe you could try to view women as human beings, with individual personalities and preferences? It might do wonders for your relationships with the women in your off-line life.

    Laurie,
    Your soliloquy unloads with miscellany not connected with this post. Feel free to take another shot at the theme: Conquest provides a psychological win for him and biological win for her. However, his nature carries enough discretion and freedom to make it a win-lose game.
    Guy

  2. Laurie

    I am sorry, I got that slightly wrong. You don’t call women “lady,” you call them “your highness.” Again, this does nothing to disguise your fundamental contempt for us.

    Laurie,

    You’re the first to object to the honorifics I use to show light-hearted and hopefully humorous respect for the opposite gender.

    You may be an exception. Most women were, are, or wish they had been someone’s princess. Consequently, my imaginative honorifics show respect and deep appreciation to women simply because other men love and respect them.

    I was raised to feel better about myself, when I showed respect to females. It still works.

    Contempt is not my strong suit. I purposely avoid it and other negative emotions in favor of thoughtfulness, usefulness, and hopefully common sense.

    Guy

    • Danielle

      LOL…Wow. Being called your highness is contempt? You speak for yourself Miss Laurie. I love being called lady, pretty, or your highness. They describe me well :)

      • Princess Rita

        I love being a pretty pretty princess and Guy is a virtual, spiritual father and grandfather to many of us. He gives countless hours to this blog that helps us get the love and respect we so crave.

  3. Lisa

    “I purposely avoid it and other negative emotions in favor of thoughtfulness, usefulness, and hopefully common sense.”

    And they are all evident in every one of your posts. :)

    Princess Lisa,
    Thank you. I love it when pretty women says such things.
    Guy

  4. Miss Dawn

    LAURIE APPEARS TO BE ONE OF THOSE LUCKY WOMEN WHO NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH MEN AND ALWAYS HAD MEN WORSHIPPING THE GROUND SHE WALKED ON AND THROWING ROSES AT HER FEET.

    I dont know what her life story is or what she looks like- But clearly she is disconnected from the very real struggles of young women in America today. Millions of teen and young women are going through horrific situations regarding femininity, boys, sex, relationships, pregnancy etc. I have seen firsthand and from personal experince what happens when girls who are completely ignorant of the nature of men and the nature of themselves get with boys and are looking for love.

    This blog is most helpful for females who want to get married and have a family someday. This blog is helpful for women who can’t understand why thier “sexual freedom” is not paying off with men as if it is a Harlequin novel.

    To LAURIE all the things to ensure that you are not hurt when dealing with men is “this is just common sense”…

    But my oh my! Would Laurie be astonished, appaled as I was when she sees how many girls lack this “common sense” that she takes for granted.

    Of course women initiate flings and one night stands! Of course mutuality is key! BUT BUT BUT- Many feamles are trying to use the recipie for a fling to get marriage.

    And this blog is for us. If you don’t need it then why don’t you just go away? Obviously, your male/female relations are perfect. So rather than shooting down guy. Why don’t YOU give us some advice that we can use?????

    *indignant*

  5. Laurie

    Miss Dawn,

    Your comment made me smile (in a friendly way, I promise!) No one has ever thrown roses at my feet. I am only an ordinary middle-aged married woman.

    Yes, I am very well aware of the heartache experienced by young women who feel they have no choice but to let young men walk all over them, who feel they must have a boyfriend at all costs, who feel that the boys have so much more social power than they do. Yes, many young women absolutely need advice. That is why I am so critical of this blog because it is teaching negative views of both men and women.

    Guy’s advice is that your only power is your virginity, your withholding of sex as though it is some sort of carrot to get a man to propose to you. Maybe this works with certain men, but what is the goal here? Do you really want to be married to a man who can be manipulated in this way? Is thinking in terms of “conquest” and “ownership” really the recipe for a happy relationship?

    The problem is that so many young girls think that their sexuality is the only way to win a man. So they either sleep with a man to try to win his heart (modern culture’s solution) or they “withhold” sex to try to win a man’s heart (Guy’s solution). Both of these are wrong, wrong, wrong.

    The real key is self-respect and respect-for-others (both of which are contrary to Guy’s philosophy). With self-respect, you know you have value REGARDLESS of your sexual choices and REGARDLESS of whether you are successful with men. That kind of self-confidence allows you to put yourself out there to get to know men. It allows you to take risks with men (i.e. put your heart on the line). It allows you to decide to have sex because you WANT to or to decide to stay absitence because you WANT to. Yeah, you might have your heart broken, but you are in a better position to find the RIGHT man for you. And if you don’t find the right man, you are in a better position to live a happily single life.

    I know I am making it sound easier than it is, and I certainly don’t mean to imply that I have led a perfect life. (It took me years to overcome my shyness and become more assertive with men.) The kind of self-confidence I am talking about requires a lot of emotional work — but remember, you were made in God’s image.

    Best wishes to you!

    P.S. I also honestly believe that Guy does not like women, and that his real agenda has nothing to do with helping women who are struggling. I think his real agenda is to engage in wishful thinking about uppity women being hurt because they didn’t play the docile virgin. Just look at the picture at the top of the page of the woman crying, “Oh no! What have I done?”

  6. easybreezy

    Laurie-

    I see your points in many ways. I do find that the truth about true male nature (and also true female nature) makes me not want to ever get married or deal with it- it seems like an impossible battle! And I’m speaking from the POV of someone who has been the target of irrational male aggressive behavior in the form of harassment and bullying at work from men in less than a year…as a chaste female at that.

    But what I think may help you recognize the ‘unseen’ dynamics of sex outside of marriage is what the Bible says about it.

  7. Laurie

    Easybreezy,

    I am really sorry to hear about the harassment and bullying you have experienced at work. That should never, ever happen to anyone.

    I have had similar experiences (although perhaps not to the same degree as you). In my case, there was always the question of, “Should I make a big deal of this or am I overreacting?” and “Will I look foolish if I tell the men involved that I am offended?” Eventually I made a decision to yell at men who touched me inappropriately and/or tell them that I thought it was inappropriate and not to do it again. That seemed to work — but I was only able to make that choice because my job was not that important at the time, and I knew I could easily find another one. It is different if you have mouths to feed in a tough economy, so I don’t mean to imply that being tough is an automatic solution.

    I don’t think harassment has much to do with being chaste or not. In my case, I was not particularly chaste in my personal life but the men involved had no way of knowing that. I was a modest dresser, kept to myself and did my work. I was a target of harassment merely because I was young and female.

    Thanks for your comment, and best wishes for a harassment-free future.

  8. Miss Dawn

    Laurie,

    Guy DOES NOT propose that virginity is the ONLY power women have over men to use it as a carrot to sucker them into marriage. That is just plain nuts. And your interpretation says more about your mindset, attitudes and beliefs than it does about what Guy is really saying here.

    In the context of women who engage in pre-marital sex with UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS – The notion that virtual virginity (not just actual virginity if you would stop doing selective reading) is helpful in fulfilling the hope of having a steady boyfriend who loves and adores you, who treats you like a queen, is damn true. And Laurie unless you can tell me that you REALLY TRULY BELIEVE that a female can suck a guys dick after 5 days of knowing him- has a right to be upset if he dumps her?

    Yes, there is such a thing as risk, but your risk is only reasonable and valid if it is under conditions that warrants you soem one who at least tried to do the right thing.

    See, you don’t know how sex affects most men obviously. i am so damn grateful for this knowledge otherwise i would still be doing what that cartoon girl is saying, “Oh no! What have I done?”

    Yes, because I, a beautiful plus-size gal; smart, pretty, sexy, cool. Had a few wonderful quality men pursue me. And if I had known what I knew from this post- I may have been married to one of them. (especially Daniel, he was a nice Chirstiam boy. When I pressured him for sex, I now know that the look in his eyes that I could not discern at the time- now in retrospect I know was a deep dissapointment) I thought that:

    1. It’s the new millinum- who thinks liek that anymore?

    2. I am woman and can do what I want!

    3. VALUE IS RELATIVE. There are no concrete rules that govern human nature and behavior regarding the opposite sex! As long as i think I value myself, who care about me demonstrating that to someone else with MY BEHAVIOR! they will just have to take my word for it!

    WRONG WRONG WRONG.

    You see Laurie, my power lies in accepting limits. My personal ones and the ones that nature imposes upon me. I realise that I have everything I need if I can stop fighting the truth. I also learned that just because I don’t like something- don’t make it not so- I can not like that the sky is blue all I want- that aint gonna make it green. we can not like that men have a conquerers nature all we want- we can be envous of women who play the game and are happy- we can call them all the nasty thing we want.

    But at the end of the day- are you REALLY HAPPY? Do you have what you really want? or do you have to get by on a shallow feeling of superiority and pride because you are not one of “those” weak pitiful women!?

    the hardest choice for American female is this: Do you want to be RIGHT or do you want to be HAPPY?

    Most women crash and burn attempting to have both. Many cloak themselves in bitterness and envy once they hit thier 40’s and the feminist dream has not delivered what they thought it would- and the rest of us? We smile in our hearts because we have let go in order to grasp joy.

    Is this easy? Of course not! But true female maturity recognizes that easy is not an option when you want a life that is quality, genuine, real, authentic, peaceful, and happy.

    The feminist, post -modern way is the easy way. It truly is the way of the female-coward. It’s easy to beat my chest and prove that I can do what men do- Its much much harder to be silent when i want to speak- to keep my legs closed when I’m horny, to guard my heart with all diligence when i just want to pour it all out on a man I barely know but gives me butterflies.

    But guess what? Anything worth having is NEVER easy. Maybe we should take our own advice before we condem the men.

    Miss Dawn has spoken.. :)

  9. Stacy

    Miss Dawn,

    “The feminist, post -modern way is the easy way. It truly is the way of the female-coward. It’s easy to beat my chest and prove that I can do what men do- Its much much harder to be silent when i want to speak- to keep my legs closed when I’m horny, to guard my heart with all diligence when i just want to pour it all out on a man I barely know but gives me butterflies.”

    This is truly a wonderful writ. It takes MORE strength to be passive, than aggressive. It takes EVEN MORE strength to realize and own up to why your past relationships continue to fail. At the end of the the day, *you* ARE the only common denominator in a string of botched up pairings. You are the only one responsible for your own happiness. It takes strength to hold that mirror up and take a good look at yourself and your habits…rather than blaming someone else.

    {bravo}

  10. Miss Dawn

    Thank you Stacy. I swept the dark corners of my heart and wrote what I found in that last paragraph. All I have to say is that God’s grace is real. And the more I accept that it’s not going to be easy- the easier it gets.
    :) I’m on my NMW campaign!

  11. Laurie

    Miss Dawn,

    Thanks for your perspective. I am not sure where you get the idea that I am condemning men (per the last paragraph of your comment on Feb. 7 at 2:17)? I think I am very positive towards men. I certainly give men a lot more credit than Guy does.
    My experience is that men have feelings too, they experience loneliness, and they want relationships! Treat them straightforwardly and they will respond well.

    I am against the idea of “conquest” and a “win-lose” mentality in relationships. That’s not the same thing as condemning men. I also think that that is NOT something women have to tolerate. Men may have more social power and respect than we do, but nonetheless, we are capable of setting the terms of our relationships. You don’t have to date the guy who views you as a conquest.

    I have been accused on this site of setting myself up as some sort of superior woman. Not at all!! I am extremely ordinary, and suffered from extreme shyness when I was younger. But I forced myself to obey the following rules when I was younger, even if it was sometimes scary. As a result, I wound up with guys (and ultimately a husband) with whom I had relationships of mutual respect:

    1) If you like a guy, don’t pine away by the phone. Call him! Ask him out! Give him a date and time to meet you for dinner!

    2) If the guy says no, don’t be ashamed. At least you tried! Brush yourself off and move on. If he is the kind of guy who has a problem with a woman making the first move, then he is not the right kind of guy anyway.

    3) Don’t sleep with a guy just to please him or because he is pressuring you. If he is pressuring you, call him on it. Tell him you resent being pressured. Tell him NO firmly. On the other hand, don’t be shy about sleeping with someone if that’s what you WANT to do.

    4) Don’t be afraid to call the guy after you have declined his attempts to sleep with you. You have nothing to be ashamed of! If he is the kind of guy who is only interested in a relationship if you sleep with him, he is not the right kind of guy.

    5) Don’t be afraid to call the guy after you have slept with him. You have nothing to be ashamed of! If he is the kind of guy who would think less of you because you slept with him, you wouldn’t want to be with him anyway.

    6) If the guy says no, brush yourself off and move on. Them’s the breaks. It’s not the end of the world. There are plenty of fish in the sea. Being turned down happens to everyone, and there is nothing to be ashamed of.

    7) Sometimes guys will call you. If you like them, respond enthusiastically. If you don’t, let them down quickly, easily, and kindly.

    8) If a guy is engaging in behavior that is disrespectful, call him on it. If he keeps doing it, drop him. If he seems like the “conquest” kind of guy, drop him.

    9) Don’t worry about winding up single. You can’t let that fear impact the choices you make with men. Remember that it is more important to wind up with the RIGHT man than to just marry for the sake of marrying.

  12. Laurie

    Miss Dawn,

    I saw on another thread that you asked about my relationship status. I will answer here since that other thread is older. I should stress that I do not think being married makes me an authority (lots of people are married), but you asked so that’s why I am addressing this.

    My husband and I are approaching our 15th wedding anniversary. We have been together 17 years in total. I am almost 40. He and I met in grad school. Yep, we slept together the first day we met. Although I don’t think men necessarily have to be the pursuers, he did in fact pursue me after that first day. He proposed to me three times before I said yes. He didn’t seem bothered by the fact that we slept together right away. We are very happy. We do not have children, but we are thinking of adopting a child within the next 1 – 5 years. If that doesn’t work out, I am okay with not having kids.

    Before I met my husband, I was in a three-year relationship with another man. In that relationship, I was the pursuer. I asked him out, slept with him on the first date, and called him after we slept together. That relationship was less happy. That boyfriend thought he should be the “boss.” He had problems with feminism. I should not have put up with it as long as I did, but we did have many good times. Ultimately, I ended the relationship.

    In the off-times (all admittedly in early youth) when I wasn’t with my husband or boyfriend, I dated as much as I could. Sometimes I got turned down, but I have never ever regretted being forward. I have always thought that it is better to try to make something happen than to just sit by the phone hoping someone will call.

    None of this makes me “superior” or you “weak.” But I do think my experience is valid, and it gives lie to the idea that we middle-aged feminists are living unhappy, lonely lives crying into our pillows.

    Best wishes.

  13. Stacy

    Laurie,

    So, despite almost every rule that you listed, where you are clearly pursuing the man, you ended up being successful with–and married to–the man that did the pursuing.

    Your attempts at “making something happen” weren’t so fruitful after all.

    Women who want a man to pursue them aren’t “sitting by the phone.” We’re out dating men who pursue us. We’re out dating *men* who don’t need us to help them date us. I am attracted to masculine energy men. Males that I have to “help” don’t interest me. Men *earn* my time and interest…I don’t give it away freely just so that I won’t have to be alone on a Saturday night.

  14. Stacy

    It sounds as if you’re confusing your “the boss” boyfriend’s behavior–and judging all ME men by that one guy–as being masculine energy. He was probably actually narcissistic energy…or a Peter Pan. With those individuals, you can never win. Your “feminist-ness” is/was irrelevant.

  15. Laurie

    Stacy,

    I agree that being a feminist is not necessarily the key to getting a date or a marriage proposal. (As one well-known feminist blogger said, “Feminism is not a dating service!”)

    My point (and my personal rules which I shared above) is that feminism is not an impediment to getting a boyfriend or a husband. I also strongly believe that a feminist sensibility will help one conduct one’s dating life more enjoyably and with more self-respect. In other words, feminists have more fun!

    Of course, feminism doesn’t guarantee you the man of your dreams. A lot of that has a lot to do with chemistry and luck (and putting your best foot forward).

    So I have some more rules that I used in my single days. My first set of rules was more procedural — how to ensure my dating life met my needs. My second set of rules has to do with attracting the other person (how to get a man) but it applies to both sexes: (And none of these things is crucial but they all help.)

    1) If you are in class with an attractive man, make sure you do the homework and say intelligent things in class. Intelligence is sexy!

    2) Cultivate an ability to say funny things. It took me YEARS to learn this, especially because men are more encouraged to be funny than women are. I hung out with the funny boys in high school and studied how they came up with good one-liners. Then I practiced until I became pretty good at the quick quip. This serves me well in my professional life even today. And being funny is sexy! (But don’t force this until you are ready. It is not essential, but it does help.)

    3) Project confidence. If you are not confident (who is?) — fake it!!!!! (This is the one area where I am not straightforward, but this is important, because confidence is extremely sexy!!!)

    Being confident also has to do with owning your real self, if that makes any sense. If you are dating a guy with prestigious advanced degrees, and you haven’t gone past high school, own that! When asked about your schooling: “I went to Sweet Valley High School.” Loud and proud! And then act as though that makes no difference whatsoever, even if he has a Ph.D from Harvard!

    4) Treat the man as though he is fascinating. Listen intently, ask follow-up questions, and show that you empathize! BUT also talk about yourself. If you only listen to him and expect him to carry the whole conversational ball, he will get bored. You have to show that you have things to say too.

    5) Take care of your appearance. Neat, clean, and put-together is sexy!

    6) Be yourself (er, just a more confident, version of yourself). If you are not interested in football, don’t fake it! That having been said, you can be interested in HIS interest in football without pretending that you like the sport itself. “What is it about football you like so much?” “Did you grow up watching it?” “Did you ever play yourself?” “How did you learn the rules when you were growing up?” “I guess I never got into it because I could never imagine being a football star myself. Do you think a lot of it has to do with fantasizing about being an NFL star when you are a little boy?” “How do you keep track of all the players and stats?” “Is it really interesting to read about a game you haven’t watched?” It is amazing what you can learn about a man’s childhood, his relationship with his dad, and other personal things, just by asking about why he likes football (for example), even if you yourself have no interest in the sport.

    7) Always be kind and considerate. No one wants to be with a mean person!

    That’s about it! It is FUN to put your best foot forward. Most of us have a lot to offer a prospective mate — and the fun is letting that shine forth.

    Best wishes.

  16. stacy

    Laurie,

    None of those additional rules you listed have ANYTHING to do with feminism. Those were the things my GRANDMOTHER did when she was dating way back in the day, and she certainly wasn’t a feminist.

    Those things you listed are what feminine women do. You’re conflating self-respect with feminism. They don’t necessarily go hand in hand…

  17. Miss Dawn

    Laurie,

    All the things you listed up there are the things that Guy proposes women do…..

    So maybe you found the rare man who doesn’t have a strong conquerer nature. Things have changed since you were in your twenties.

    I promise you that a girl cannot sleep with a guy in THIS DAY AND AGE and plan to marry him. It is nearly unheard of and all the women who come to this blog and agree with it have already tried that path and failed.

    You were lucky. Your case is rare and you need to accept that. If fucking on the first date was going to ensure me a husband- i would be married by now!

    I acknowledge your personal experince. But as far as modeling myself after- fashioning myself after the pattern you did. I know it would not work for me in the age of extreme female cheapness.
    :)

  18. Laura

    Or maybe Laurie is a masculine-energy woman married to a feminine-energy man? (see Dr. Patricia Allen – Getting to “I Do”)

  19. Laurie

    Hi Miss Dawn,

    I AGREE WITH YOU that my approach to dating isn’t specifically feminist (though it is not contrary to feminism). I said that in my comment (though granted my comment was lengthy so you might have missed it.) Feminism is not a dating service! And, I’d have to go back and re-read the thread, but I don’t think that I am the one who brought up feminism.

    My point is that being a feminist isn’t an impediment to dating.

    That having been said, my idea of making the first move and not necessarily abstaining from casual sex (if one chooses to engage in it) are contrary to Guy’s advice.

  20. Laurie

    More to Miss Dawn:

    Perhaps you live in a community or part of the country with cultural norms very different from where I live. Maybe MOST of the men where you are have that, “I would never marry a woman I sleep with” attitude. I have certainly run across men in my time who hold that belief. My solution was to weed out those guys. But what if ALL the guys are like that where you are?

    In which case, ouch. I am not sure what advice to give. But the problem with Guy’s advice is that he ONLY proposes that you do everything you can to please those guys. There are always other choices even if they are difficult ones.

    Personally, I would move or stay single. The question is whether being yoked FOR LIFE to a man with a “win-lose” conqueror mentality towards you has benefits that outweigh the downside. I don’t think so but it is up to each individual woman to decide. It just makes me sad to think that there are young women in the western world today who believe they have no choice but to marry a jerk.

    But if you are in a conservative community, the choices are admittedly harder. The options are: Move. Speak out and make a nuisance of yourself (which is hard but has the benefit of weeding out unpleasant guys). Stay single. Hold out patiently for the one guy in your area who is different. (In this day in age, there have to be at least a couple.) Or marry a guy who views your marriage as a power struggle with sex as the leverage.

  21. Laurie

    You’re conflating self-respect with feminism. They don’t necessarily go hand in hand…

    I dunno. The following Rebecca West quotation seems to match my experience:

    I myself have never been able to find out what feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute.

  22. Laurie

    Or maybe Laurie is a masculine-energy woman married to a feminine-energy man? (see Dr. Patricia Allen – Getting to “I Do”)

    I am not familiar with Dr. Allen. I agree that I have many qualities that our culture has traditionally labeled “masculine” — but then so does every other woman I know! Which means that these aren’t really “masculine” qualities, are they?

    The other problem with these labels is that being “feminine” has so much stigma for men in our culture. So NOT being a jerk/conqueror gets labeled “feminine” which for a man is a BAD thing. Which means that men are actually punished culturally for NOT “using” women who sleep with them or engaging in other approved masculine behaviors. (Show any senstivity, and a man’s friends may say, “What are you a p****? Are you a f**?”) Certainly, there are plenty of men who have escaped that cultural trap but it still exists. (Feminism is useful in helping to change attitudes in this area.)

    The other problem with labeling my husband as “feminine” in some way, means that you likely immediately have an image of a wimpy push-over. In fact, he is a pretty confident, hard-working, tough-minded, independent person. Certainly no one tells him what to do. He just happens to not view women as merely sex objects.

  23. Laurie

    Lastly, I am NOT an opponent of the women who post on this site. I am NOT superior to you. I STRONGLY empathize with the sense that men-run-the-show, men-have-certain-requirements and there-aren’t-many-options but to go along with it.

    I actually come from a country (before I went to high school) where mothers made their daughters undergo female genital mutilation. They did this because they knew A) the men would not accept wives who had not undergone this horrible procedure and B) the daughters would live in poverty without a husband. Erego, the mothers concluded that being mutilated was in their daughters’ best interest. This was not an irrational conclusion under the circumstances.

    This is an extreme example (although one that certainly pushed me in the direction of feminism!!!) but it shows that women aren’t weak or bad for going along with power structures over which they have no control. But aren’t we lucky in the west to live in places where we CAN question those power structures rather than just appeasing them because we think we have no choice?

    I am NOT ab0ut dictating to other women what is best under their circumstances. But I care a lot about women who feel their choices are limited because it reminds me of the women in the country where I was born. I want women to know that there are always other options in places like the U.S., that your voices and your self-respect matter.

  24. Miss Dawn

    Hi Laurie,

    Thank you for sharing your personal experince. I think the fact that you were born in a very different culture explains a lot about your view. it makes sense.

    For me though- There is no threat of genital mutilation (Thank You Lord). But that practice is not based upon anything related to this site or what Guy proposes. (I studied it in college when I wanted a Womens Studies Degree!) Genital mutilation is done by the MOTHERS!!! It is a fear-based practice in a culture that accepts many twisted ideas combined by economic hardship.

    I noticed that femnism uses the most EXTREME cases of female opression as a basis for man of its precepts. Foot-binding, genital mutilation, witch burning, bride-sacrificing etc. However, context is always out of proportion and in making comparisons- It just is illogical and silly to compare the pain of having your clitoris cut off to the pain which is born of frustration caused by denial of immediate gratification. Immediate gratification means: Innapropriate sexual relations with a man who has no obligation to stay with you. It means other things as well for us American women with such inflated sense of entitlement!

    You would be surprised how many women conduct themselves like total floozies and never look at themselves in the equation regarding why they cannot have what it is that THEY say they want so badly. MARRIAGE TO A GOOD MAN!

    Look a good man does not want to marry a predatory, loose woman any more than a woman does not want to marry a man who would back down from another man if he piched your butt in public.

    I don’t want a man who is a scardy cat. I don’t want a man who is not a MAN. So why then do heterosexual feminists condemn men when they want a WOMAN? A REAL WOMAN?

    Sorry but I have lived the days of being : Queer, Gender-bending, no shaving and makeup, heels are opressive, I want a “nice” (read wimpy feminine) man.

    But once I went to my heart, my soul, deep in my bones- I want a manly-man.

    Like I said before- I believe that anything worth keeping and maintaining requires some effort on the area of character. Therefore, to me what I hear you saying is that a woman should NOT exsert herself in the areas of: SELF-RESTRAINT/ SELF-CONTROL. When it comes to dating and men. What say you to this?

    Manly-Men (the marrying kind not immature playboys) cannot live up to the unnatural standards of contemporary popular American feminism. It is contrary to nature in almost all respects.

    I am woman baby- HEAR ME ROAR! (When I am not inthe presence of those lovely men yes!)

    Like I said before- Men who have conquerer natures appeal to very feminine women like me. It wasn’t about changing the men. it was about changing myself. And trust me, leqarning to subjugate most base and primal desires to my higher, more spiritual ones has done nothing but improved my life in every respect.

    Feminism establishing me from being a doormat? I don’t need feminism to do that!!! Also, there is really being a doormat and being PERCIEVED as a doormat.

    I think that feminists care more about what epope think of them than thier own dreams and goals.

    It’s time that women take responsibility for thier own lives. it is the only decent way to live.

  25. Miss Dawn

    I am not a masculine engergy woman.

    I am femmy fem fem all the way. AND I LIKE IT SO BACK OFF

    :):):):).

  26. Stacy

    Laurie,

    Most feminists I know attempt to “include” all women as feminist–or embodying feminist beliefs–for simply having self-respect. Again, they do not go hand in hand. Chasing after a man, to me, is a lack of self respect. So, a woman identifying as “feminist” who supports chasing after men, I don’t see her as “empowered.” She’s begging. Which in my eyes, is not self-respect. I see it as doormat behavior.

    From what I’ve seen, the “yo go girl/get your freak on ” women are the most begging & groveling when it comes to men and dating/marriage. However, those women
    who identify as feminist reframe the narrative and see themselves as being “empowered” and “emotionally present” and “taking the bull by the horns.”

    But men, at least ME men, see their behavior for what it is: begging & groveling.

    They are at first flattered, but then wonder WHY it is that you have to chase them. Doesn’t anybody *want* you?

    Chasing is begging. Why do I even need to use brain space for a man who is fiddling around hoping that I’ll beg him to go out with me (read: call him), when I can be out having a fabulous time with men who aren’t afraid to lay it out that they want Miss Stacy?

    If I just want to go out and have fun, I have a whole mantourage of male friends I can call. I don’t need to call/beg a guy, which essentially is trying to manipulate him into some sort of romantic liaison.

    If she’s chasing a FE man, that’s different, because she is the pursuer while he is being the pursued. Most feminist women confuse this sitcuation as being in an “equal” or “egalitarian” relationship, but in reality it is not. The energies have changed, but the pursuer/pursued dynamic has NOT…it’s just that here the ME in
    the dating is the female instead of the male.

    And no, a man being FE (and not a lazy ME or a Peter Pan) is not seen as less than, but it IS a different relating style. My aunt is a self-made millionaire, she did management work her whole career, to call her ME would be an understatement. Her life partner is FE, and he’s most certainly a man’s man, he’s just more comfortable letting her lead.

    I’m ME, but ME men are what I’m attracted to. I have 7 academic degrees, my guy works for UPS (I think he just completed his BA). I prefer for him to lead and our relationship has grown by leaps and bounds once he trusted that he would be safe in being accepted for being a ME man by me. My guess is that he’s been going out with women who waffle back and forth in their ME/FE selves and/or really don’t know what they want in a relationship (my guess would be the later).

    In terms of “feminist women having more fun,” I’m not impressed by a woman and her “yo go girl/feminist mentality” with her string of exboyfriends/exfriendsbenefits
    which, in the public health circles, we call serial monogomy.

    Nor am I impressed by the guy who says, “oh i’m totally fine with women having sex on the date” (if they even get to a date. I mean REALLY, why would a man say
    anything otherwise if he has an inkling that he might get into your pants. They ARE totally fine with having sex with women on the first date. And totally fine with
    dating those women. And totally fine with being their boyfriend for a while.

    fucking…not marrying. dating…not marrying. boyfriending….not marrying.

    There’s plenty of casual sex/serial monogamy to be had, and if that’s all you want, then do your thing. Causal sex does not interest me. Women, not men, bear the
    burden of casual sex–and I’m not talking about moral issues, either. Filling my body with horomones monthly. paying for those hormones. upping my risk of getting an
    assortment of STI’s, which, by the way, vary depending on with age bracket you’re fooling around with (new HIV infections are on the RISE in the 50+ set, so even your
    viagra-packing sugar daddy might give you something). upping my risk of getting pregnant. upping my likelihood of having to consider an abortion.

    all for 5 minutes to 2 hours of sex? that may or may not be good?

    is it *that* serious? really? REALLY?

    Going by the numbers you gave, you were married at/around 23/24 yrs, around the year 1994 AND you were dating your husband two years before that. Laurie, no offense, but you were not down and are not down in the trenches to see the real results of the feminist movement & the resulting “male dating laziness” movement on dating & mating in the year
    2009. Your rose-colored glasses are a bit too rosey. You are not talking with high school girls/boys on a real level. Or college age kids, on a real level. You aren’t
    seeing what’s going on with women/men in their 20s. You aren’t trying to find a partner who’s in his 30s and has gotten quite comfortable with the “unpaid prostitute” culture of today.

    Where girls/women are truly having to SETTLE for significantly less, if they want to be in a relationship/married.

    I question how many women today TRULY are all good in the hood with the casual sex thing. It’s one thing if you have a CHOICE and you choose that, it’s another thing
    if you feel pressured. Your response to this blog as being anti-women is exactly the pressure that girls (and grown-ass women) today are feeling from other *women*,
    NOT MEN, to be slinging sex around. That means that these girls don’t actually feel like they have a choice.

    I have one ex-student who’s about to complete her first year of college, she is definitely ME and very sexually active. Her best friend is a very sassy FE girl who wants an ME man and is waiting to have sex until marriage. I talk with them about ME/FE and what that looks like in the dating & mating world. Both of them are
    *authentically* who they are. They are navigating the dating waters very well.

    They are NOT the norm.

    I realize part of your position comes from your background, which is true for us all. For my “professional self” I’ve been in academia most of my life–these men are not stupid…they have been–and are using–the feminist battle cry for their own gain. As a respondent wrote in Shere Hite’s book, “as a result of the sexual revolution, women have been getting fucked, literally and figuratively.” Non-academics latch onto what’s being preached in the academic circles, because it’s assumed that “they learned…they must be right” so the information is also being used by men outside academic circles.

    For me, I think it’s academically unethical for feminist & gender studies profs to continue preaching free sex/yo go girl messages to its female students, based on a theoretical orientation that is a good 15-20 years out of date, because of their rosey glasses, and then go home to their long-term partner or spouse, while these girls (and grown-ass women who are drinking the same kool-aid) are getting tossed to the sharks.

    Not for nothing, but it was the religious girls who fared best when I was in undergrad & grad school. Or the girls who had a strong foot and weren’t afraid to put it down. It was the “you go girl/get your freak on” girls that were always falling apart and boring me with the play by play of their dysfunctional relationship lives. And I think it’s because they were play-acting an energy that wasn’t truly theirs. But female peer-pressure is a bitch.

    I have not gotten a SINGLE negative comment from the men I know about the fact that I decided to be celibate. It is the WOMEN that have been full of snide and hateful comments. And I am not alone, do searches for “waiting communities.”

    “I want women to know that there are always other options in places like the U.S., that your voices and your self-respect matter.”

    Not true. Not in the US. Not if your voice and self-respect run counter to the feminist dogma. You certainly won’t get any support from them. Just rolled eyes, snide comments (anyone remember Hillary’s comment about stay-home mom’s baking cookies) and statements that you’re supporting patriarchy.

    It’s interesting that you seem to perceive female ME as positive and then turn around and refer to ME men as jerk/conqueror. That’s your judgment…it isn’t reality. Jerks are jerks. It has nothing to do with a man being ME. You should read Allen’s book. It will make more sense. You’re using societal terminology and definitions, which are not correct in this context.

    “but it shows that women aren’t weak or bad for going along with power structures over which they have no control.”

    Reframe this to understand human nature:

    But it shows that men & women aren’t weak or bad for going along with their inner energies, over which they have no control.

    Laurie, from my heart though, I am glad you are in a safe place now, compared to where you’re from. But understand that the devil wears different masks (and he resides in different countries). “Liberation” is relative. The pendulum has swung too far in this country. We need to return to sexual balance in the US. And this isn’t about morals and who’s a slut and who isn’t. This is about common sense and psychological and physical health. The womanhood is in serious turmoil.

  27. Stacy

    Miss Dawn,

    “It means other things as well for us American women with such inflated sense of entitlement!”

    I think this speaks to men and women. This is part of the cause of our country’s (and other developed countries) financial fall-out. Self-control is needed in other areas too, for American people, finances included! :] We as a country need to shrug off our hedonistic past and do a little growing up. ;}

  28. Miss Dawn

    STACY!!!

    “Going by the numbers you gave, you were married at/around 23/24 yrs, around the year 1994 AND you were dating your husband two years before that. Laurie, no offense, but you were not down and are not down in the trenches to see the real results of the feminist movement & the resulting “male dating laziness” movement on dating & mating in the year
    2009. Your rose-colored glasses are a bit too rosey. You are not talking with high school girls/boys on a real level. Or college age kids, on a real level. You aren’t
    seeing what’s going on with women/men in their 20s. You aren’t trying to find a partner who’s in his 30s and has gotten quite comfortable with the “unpaid prostitute” culture of today.

    Where girls/women are truly having to SETTLE for significantly less, if they want to be in a relationship/married…”

    HALLELUYA! AMEN TO THAT! THERE IS NOTHING NOT TRUE THERE!

  29. Stacy

    “I am woman baby- HEAR ME ROAR! (When I am not inthe presence of those lovely men yes!)”

    You can roar, just do it in that fabulous, femmy way! ;>

    Stacy “Puttin her foot down in 4-inch stilettos” Fabulousness!

  30. Miss Dawn

    “…I have not gotten a SINGLE negative comment from the men I know about the fact that I decided to be celibate. It is the WOMEN that have been full of snide and hateful comments. And I am not alone, do searches for “waiting communities.”……”

    DAMN. MISS STACY HAS SPOKEN! YOU GO GIRL (BUT DON’T GET YOUR FREAK ON..LOL)

    Wow. isn’t it funny how women end up being the perpetrators? Just like it’s the WOMEN to do the genital mutilation in Africa and the Middle East. It’s all because of a pathological jealosy that goes something like..”I had my clitoris cut off- I’ll be damned if I let this little heifer keep hers” OR “I lost my virginity and suffer from guilt and shame from one night stands- But no one knows it but me- DAMN those goody-goody celibate bitches! They need to get out there and start practicing thier sexual freedom so they can be as miserable as I am.”

    They are just envious of thier sisters inner strength. We don’t hear about it all that much. But internally strong women who have a lot of self-control and restraint drive women who CAN’T keep thier legs closed green with hatred.

    Things that make you go “HHmmmmmm…”

    Miss Dawn has spoken. :):)

    hee hee!

  31. Laurie

    Wow– lots of comments to read and I haven’t had a chance to read through carefully, but this one is important, because I think it shows you may be missing my point:

    I question how many women today TRULY are all good in the hood with the casual sex thing. It’s one thing if you have a CHOICE and you choose that, it’s another thing
    if you feel pressured. Your response to this blog as being anti-women is exactly the pressure that girls (and grown-ass women) today are feeling from other *women*,
    NOT MEN, to be slinging sex around. That means that these girls don’t actually feel like they have a choice.

    See, here is the thing. No woman SHOULD be pressured to make a particular choice to satisfy some ideology of the sexes. That’s the WHOLE thing!!!!

    Are feminists saying you should sleep with every man? I don’t hear them saying that.

    Is there a campus culture that says women need to sleep with men casually to be considered cool? Yeah! But that isn’t feminism.

    Feminism is the right to say NO to sex, as well as the right to say yes. And it’s about getting rid of the double-standard.

    There are two sides of the same sexist coin: HAVE SEX ARE YOU ARE AN UNCOOL PRUDE is a sexist idea. STAY A VIGIN OR YOU ARE AN AWFUL FLOOZY who doesn’t deserve a man is a sexist idea. Either way you are judged by your sex life in a way that men are not. These ideas turn women into sex objects, whose full humanity is not recognized.

    Please stop confusing “girls gone wild” with feminism.

  32. Laurie

    I also want to respond to the comment that equates a woman who asks a man out with “begging” and “desperation.”

    See, I think it is your comment that reveals a lack of respect for women (and since you are a woman, a lack of self-respect). Since you want a strong, manly-man, and you think the man should do the asking, then presumably you do not view a man who asks as automatically being a pathetic beggar reeking of desperation.

    I also don’t see how you can view a woman asking a man on a date as “manipulative.”

    What is so pathetic or manipulative about saying to a member of the opposite sex, “Would you like to have dinner with me on Friday night?” or “I’d love it if you would be my date to the dance?” These seem like lovely straightforward requests. You would think it was charming if a man did it, but somehow if I do it, I am predatory, manipulative, pathetic, desperate, etc.

    Doesn’t that upset you that your motives could be construed in such a way just because you are a woman? Does that seem fair or appropriate to you?

    I am not saying you have to risk being perceived that way. And indeed, many feminists DON’T do the asking because we know that our motives will be misconstrued in exactly this way. So even we are sometimes consigned to waiting by the phone because we are placed by the larger culture in that “female” box, the box that says, “You can’t take the initiative without looking desperate.”

    The difference is we criticize that box. (And some of us do say, “Screw the box. I’m asking him anyway!”) But you guys don’t seem to be questioning the box, i.e. the limits of “appropriate” female behavior. You have decided that going along with the box because you think you are more likely to get a man that way.

  33. Laurie

    I am floored by this comment:

    Wow. isn’t it funny how women end up being the perpetrators? Just like it’s the WOMEN to do the genital mutilation in Africa and the Middle East. It’s all because of a pathological jealosy that goes something like..”I had my clitoris cut off- I’ll be damned if I let this little heifer keep hers” OR “I lost my virginity and suffer from guilt and shame from one night stands- But no one knows it but me- DAMN those goody-goody celibate bitches! They need to get out there and start practicing thier sexual freedom so they can be as miserable as I am.”

    You really do loathe women, don’t you? It’s not your fault. You have bought into the cultural hatred of women with which you were raised. It is hard to escape it when everyone is telling you how much women suck – how we are pathologically jealous bitches who hate each other. It is impossible for you to conceive of women having rational motivations for their conduct, or a desire to support other women, because you have always been told otherwise.

    Yeah, women are often perpetrators of sexism because when your whole culture is sexist and you don’t have much power, you have to go along with sexism to get by. Women in my birth culture are trying to HELP their daughters. In my overwhelmingly sexist culture in which women have now power, you HAVE to mutilate your daughter; otherwise, she starves because she will not find a husband. I explained this already, yet you now you want to cast these women as irrationally jealous psychopaths.

    (I should also note that there are plenty of amazing women’s organizations in my home culture fighting this horrible practice, with the support of western feminist groups. But it isn’t an easy thing when everyone in your culture thinks a certain way.)

    The point of my comparison wasn’t that American culture does anything similar to genital mutilation. Obviously not. My point is that some of you ladies are in the same boat as the mutiliating mothers in the way you view what is appropriate for women. Your argument boils down to: We HAVE to do X, Y, and Z (not ask a man out, act “feminine”, docile, etc. etc.) because otherwise men won’t marry us. How far exactly are you willing to let the men’s desires constrain your behavior?

    I say that you can step outside that box and say, “Does it have to be that way?” I am not saying it is EASY to step out of that box if you are in a conservative culture. Trust me, I know this from the experiences of women in my family! But there ARE other options in life, especially here in America.

  34. easybreezy

    “…I have not gotten a SINGLE negative comment from the men I know about the fact that I decided to be celibate. It is the WOMEN that have been full of snide and hateful comments. And I am not alone, do searches for “waiting communities.”……”

    I have met a few men who tried to convince me I had problems but for the most part this is the TRUTH. I get more support from men on my stance (even the ones trying to convince me to go to bed with them) than from women (who are trying to convince me to give it all up for free).

  35. Stacy

    “We HAVE to do X, Y, and Z (not ask a man out, act “feminine”, docile, etc. etc.) because otherwise men won’t marry us. ”

    {{sigh}}

    You only want to hear the orchestra of your own position.

    I don’t “have to.” I don’t **WANT TO**

    You deny nature for lofty ideals and constantly reframe the discussion so that it fits into your ever-changing definition of “feminism.” First it’s choice is okay. Then it’s “well choice is okay but as long as you’re doing this.” Then it’s “oh well what I’m saying is that women should have a choice, even though they clearly don’t and it’s women who are egging them on into unhealthy sex behaviors so we must change society so they can have a choice to have sex–even though they already are–and *that’s* feminism” then it’s “you must hate women yourself if you follow a choice that goes contrary to what I believe women should do.”

    Again, back to judgmental attitudes on YOUR part and how that feeds a culture where women DON’T actually feel like they have a CHOICE. You still don’t get the reality of our inner energies, be they ME or FE.

    As I posted to you months ago, to which you never replied, regarding Camille Paglia (who I think is brilliant *because* she steeps herself in–and bases her theories on–the real realities of men, not typical feminist wishful thinking), women like you are suckers for homosocialization and groupthink. I am not. I think outside the box.

    Laurie, you still don’t get it and, frankly, I’m tired of trying. I find it ironic that women your age are so closed off to actual progressive thinking, whereas my high school and college students ARE open to re-thinking some dating/mating norms. THAT’S progressive thinking. But again, THEY’RE the ones actually out there in the trenches dealing with the fallout.

    They aren’t armchair warriors.

  36. Laurie

    Lastly before I go to work:

    1) It’s interesting that you seem to perceive female ME as positive and then turn around and refer to ME men as jerk/conqueror. I never once said it is okay for a woman to view dating and sex as “conquest.” I NEVER said anything like that. That goes against everything I believe in.

    I think the confusion comes from YOUR idea that “masculine” = conqueror. Our culture also happens to label as masculine many POSITIVE qualities — rationalism and logic, ambition, achievement, competitiveness, heroism, self-sacrifice. I don’t happen to think that men have a monopoly on those qualities!

    2) You aren’t trying to find a partner who’s in his 30s and has gotten quite comfortable with the “unpaid prostitute” culture of today.

    Isn’t a “prostitute” one who barters sex in exchange for other benefits? YOU want women to hold sex out as a reward to get men to marry us. Your system sounds more like prostitution to me than the notion that women can have casual sex for the fun of it if they want to!

    You also seem to buy into the self-hating idea that men would never want to be with women (ew, yuck!!) except for sex. I now it may be shocking to you, but men actually do fall in love with women because of their personal qualities. Men aren’t unfeeling brutes, and women aren’t pathetic creatures who have nothing to offer but sex. Certainly, there are men who view wives as nothing more than highly compensated prostitutes– but again, aren’t you better off staying single than marrying a guy like that?

    3) You talk about female “entitlement” as though women who have sex are selfish, bad, and without self-control. But have you ever noticed that men who sleep around don’t get the same finger-wagging? Why is it okay for them? Aren’t you angry that you are judged harshly for something that is considered “cool” for men to do? Yeah, I understand the issues women undergo in the hook-up culture — but I think the double-standard has a lot to do with it. Women feel guilt and shame because they are debased in a way that men are not; it is humiliating. If we were respected (and respected ourselves) as autonomous individuals with our own feelings, desires, and sexual agency, then maybe women on campus wouldn’t be sleeping with men they don’t want to sleep with, and wouldn’t feel guilty and ashamed when they sleep with men they do want to sleep with!

    P.S. I am getting the sense that you are very young. Maybe that is why you think that the world was a totally different place 15 years ago. In fact, 15 years is a VERY short amount of time. The campus hook-up culture was in full swing when I was in college, and the same issues were being debated then. So I don’t think I am as out of touch as you claim. I am not exactly ancient, you know.

  37. Laurie

    Hey Stacy,

    Just saw your comment. Must have missed the one you left me a while back.

    I have read all of Camille Paglia’s books — when they came out no less! I initially enjoyed them because I liked her tough, blunt, take-no-prisoners persona! But she isn’t saying anything new about gender. And neither are you. You are re-hashing the same old stereotypes and proposing that we all live by them.

    Look, I think I have been pretty consistent in my comments. Women should exercise self-respect (which can include saying NO to sex) but this can be difficult in a world that devalues female self-respect. That’s precisely why feminism is important. I DO want cultural attitudes to change. And they HAVE changed in most parts of the U.S., albeit to varying degrees, including where I live. Men ARE capable of respecting women. And when we are around men who won’t respect women, we have other options besides just capitulating. There is still a ways to go, but feminism has been successful beyond even my wildest dreams as a young woman.

    I am guessing we will never see eye-to-eye, but I am enjoying the discussion.

  38. Stacy

    “”prostitute” one who barters sex in exchange for other benefits?”

    No, a prostitute is paid for a service. She doesn’t barter.

  39. Laurie

    I have met a few men who tried to convince me I had problems but for the most part this is the TRUTH. I get more support from men on my stance (even the ones trying to convince me to go to bed with them) than from women (who are trying to convince me to give it all up for free).

    So?

    Also again with the prostitution language. “For free?” What am I, some sort of sucker for not getting a higher price for my wares?*

    *P.S. I am not trying to be rude, but rather to make a point! The fact that some women don’t fully respect your choice, just seems irrelevant to me. And I DO honestly think that your view of marriage and sex is akin to prostitution. My body (whether I wait until marriage or sleep with lots of people) is not for sale or subject to any kind of exchange; my body serves me for my pleasure under circumstances of my choosing.

  40. Laurie

    Stacy,

    No, a prostitute is paid for a service. She doesn’t barter.

    I doubt that prostitutes never negotiate a price! But it seems like a distinction without a difference. What distinction are you making?

  41. Stacy

    Not sure what your definition of “young” is but I’m 35.

    You keep reframing what I’m saying through YOUR old man/woman stereotypes and your beliefs about what feminism is. Not surprised you aren’t a Paglia fan. You mention her books, perhaps you should read some of her recent addresses.

    I want women to hold out on sex because they aren’t getting anything out of it anymore, if they *ever* were. I want women to avoid women who make them feel bad for wanting to wait, or at least tune women out who do so. Women who say one thing about women being able to choose, but the undercurrent of their words is still saying the same old “true female freedom is going out and having sex like a man.”

    I’m not interested in feminist-based female freedom. I’m interested in MY freedom.

    Men totally respect women. I don’t know where you get this idea that men aren’t or we think they don’t. But just as with myself, I give respect to those who earn my respect. I grew up with a Naval leutenant father and a depression-era battleaxe grandmother. I’m not around men who don’t respect women. I don’t have time for that crap. I leave. Over and out. Mid-sentence if I have to. I’m not around women who don’t respect me. They’re aren’t any different, I don’t have time for their crap either.

    “You also seem to buy into the self-hating idea that men would never want to be with women (ew, yuck!!) except for sex. I now it may be shocking to you, but men actually do fall in love with women because of their personal qualities.”

    Umm, my guy and I were quite fabulously sexually active and then I decided I wasn’t doing that anymore because serial monogamy is pretty freekin lame & a serious health risk. He’s still happily with me. I challenge you to have your single free sex supporting friends do the same with their boyfriends. Oh yeah, I know. They wouldn’t want to because “they love sex just as much as the guy.” Blah blah blah. When in reality they probably won’t, because they know they’d be DUMPED. So, who’s really the one using sex for bargaining? Who’s really one using sex to, hopefully, increase or maintain their value? Not women who are waiting, that’s for sure. You can’t possibly be bargaining with sex if it isn’t on the table in the first place. If anything, my bargaining is based on how fabulous I am. And that’s pretty hard for any man to resist! ;>

    15 years ago our country would NEVER EVER EVER have elected a Black president. EVER!! But we did last year.

    15 years before 1933 no one in Germany would have EVER thought that millions of people would be gassed and burned in concentration camps, but they sure as hell were.

    15 years is quite a long time when it comes to social-cultural change. The hookup culture is not the same as it was 15-20 years ago.

    I don’t want to talk masculine feminine anymore though, until/unless you read Allen’s book, because you and I aren’t using the language in the same way. And if we’re going to argue, I’d like us to be arguing with words we both have the same definitions for. Okay? :>

  42. Laurie

    Stacy,

    Congratulations on being lucky in love!

    I don’t think that I am stronger than the average woman, and I am guessing you aren’t either. Yet you and I have both made choices to have sex on our own terms, when we want, with whom we want, based on our own values, even if it means risking the disapproval of potential suitors. And for both of us, it worked out! Your significant other totally respects your decision to abstain. Neither my prior boyfriend nor my husband lost respect for me just because I hopped into bed.

    I think women will be better off when we stop buying this idea that the approval of men is more important than our own sexual agency, whether we choose to say YES or NO to sex. If some men disapprove, well, there are plenty of fish in the sea. And if we can’t find the right fish, well, that’s fine too.

    The problem is folks like Guy. Guy wants women to believe that the only men who exist are the ones who think like Guy, that women should adjust their behavior to what Guy wants, and that if they don’t do what Guy wants, they will be crying in the end. That’s simply not true.

  43. Stacy

    Laurie,

    This one’s for you. See, you can be femmy-femme and tough! :>

    http://www.collegecandy.com/buzz/15329

  44. Stacy

    I’m loving how bad-A that front woman looks!

  45. Stacy

    “I think women will be better off when we stop buying this idea that the approval of men is more important than our own sexual agency, whether we choose to say YES or NO to sex.”

    I would agree with this, except I strongly believe that the reality is that women need to stop buying this idea that the approval of men, and women in particular, is more important than one’s own sexual agency. It isn’t just men who are pushing judgment on a woman who is or isn’t having sex. It’s women too.

  46. Laurie

    Hey,

    I love the Pink Gang! That made my day.

    Maybe we agree on more than we think we do. I wholeheartedly concur with your notion that BOTH women and men have attitudes that hurt people (especially women) based on gender.

    I don’t think the fact that women participate in sexism invalidates anything I said, does it? Nor does it invalidate feminism (the notion of female equality), does it? It doesn’t really matter WHO is dissing me because I am a woman; what matters is that I am being dissed because I am a woman.

  47. Stacy

    Close, but not all the way. :>

    I’m a humanist (and an arrogant one at that).
    What matters is that *I* am being dissed. Period.

  48. easybreezy

    ” What am I, some sort of sucker for not getting a higher price for my wares?*”

    To that I say, yes. “He plays, she pays.” She sells herself short. She settles for sex instead of love and committment. The price she pays for the consequences of sex outside of the protecting confines of marriage (meaning a partner who has confirmed and pledged publically that he is willing to care for and support any children that may result from a sexual union- and can be held accountable for) is much higher than what a man pays for sex outside of marriage. SHE is more susceptible to STDs (open reproductive system-she receives). SHE is the one who can get pregnant. SHE is the one more likely to get emotionally attached. SHE is the one more likely to be called derogatory names or develop a bad reputation (not fair, but true). SHE is the one that if she decides she thinks she can’t handle motherhood under her circumstances, often undergoes the violent procedure called abortion which has untold emotional and psychological consequences. Fair or unfair, these are the laws of nature. Prostitutes (I don’t condone the activity) are smart in the sense that they demand some sort of compensation for the risks they are taking in having sex minus committment and love. Anyone other than that would be wise to protect herself.

  49. Laurie

    Easybreezy,

    Of course it is true that women, by virtue of biology, risk more physiological consequences when they have who has casual sex is a sucker.

    Here is my problem with the one-size-fits-all mentality that Guy promotes. It leaves no room for the intelligence or wishes of the individual woman. It also assumes that an individual woman receives no pleasure from sex that might make the risks seem worthwhile to her. It also ignores the many options women have to reduce those risks, options which also play into the woman’s decisionmaking.

    Women are capable of assessing the risks and benefits of sex, contraception and abstinence, particularly if they receive comprehensive sex education when they are young.

    As a woman, you look at how much (or how little) you enjoy sex, your financial situation, your health situation, your access to adequate contraception, the risks regarding STDs, pregnancy and/or side effects from your contraception and you decide whether having sex is worthwhile to you. Sure, it is a more complex decisionmaking process than a man goes through since women are indeed differently situated. But it is perfectly rational for one woman to say, “It is worth it because of the benefits I get from sex.” It is also perfectly rational for another woman to say, “Sex isn’t worth it” or “I will only do it in certain circumstances, such as marriage.”

    I also adamantly disagree with the notion that women are all susceptible to horrendous pyschological or emotional consequences from sex (or abortion for that matter). The idea that Guy (or anyone) knows more than the woman herself about how she is likely to react to a given situation seems bizarre to me.

    In my case, it was (and IS) a pain-in-the-butt to go to a doctor, get a prescription, suffer side effects from time to time until my prescription is adjusted, and worry about pregnancy. But for me, the experience was (and IS) still worth those difficulties. For me, these issues seemed like minor annoyances, and unwanted pregnancy seemed highly unlikely for someone using both condoms and the pill. Again, another woman might come to a different conclusion.

    I am also not following the idea that marriage somehow makes up for the difficulties and risks of contraception and unwanted pregnancy. Those issues don’t disappear when you are married. (My only pregnancy scare occurred when I was married.) And abstinence is no longer a realistic option when you are married; I think my husband would be justifiably upset if I suddenly decided we should be abstinent for a year.

  50. Laurie

    Oops, part of my first paragraph got eaten. I was trying to say that I agree that there are more physiological consequences of sex for a woman, but I don’t agree that a woman who has casual sex is a sucker.

  51. Laurie

    There is another problem with the idea that a woman who has sex without marriage is a sucker.

    It presumes that the woman wants marriage. Many women (including my younger self) don’t.

    It also presumes that marriage will benefit the woman. That really depends on the arrangement one has with one’s husband and the woman’s individual goals and desires.

  52. easybreezy

    Laurie- I think your arguements, and to your credit, they are clever, are very theoretical.

    But in the real world things don’t work that way. If you think so, you are seeing an illusion. Have you ever heard of Post Abortion Stress Syndrome? I have seen friends’ personalities change for the worse after they had one….years of depression, anger, and regret. You can’t tell me there’s no long-term physchological or spiritual effects from that sort of thing.

    I hear very very very few women say the pleasure from sex is worth the consequences they experience from having outside of wedlock. Most women will tell you if they are honest, that they wish they had waited. And most women are using sex to get love. That is just the reality.

  53. Miss Dawn

    LAURIE SAYS…”The difference is we criticize that box. (And some of us do say, “Screw the box. I’m asking him anyway!”) But you guys don’t seem to be questioning the box, i.e. the limits of “appropriate” female behavior. You have decided that going along with the box because you think you are more likely to get a man that way….”

    First of all… Let me tell ya’ll something about my history as a “radical-feminist”…

    This is who I used to read and love and agree with:

    Simone de Bouvior
    Bell Hooks
    Angela Davis
    Audre Lorde

    I spelled woman as “womyn”- I was invited to speak at the Sacramento “Take back the Night”, I screamed “YES MEANS YES AND NO MEANS NO-HOWEVER I DRESS WHERE EVER I GO”, I worshipped the Goddess, lived as a butch lesbian, and elevated myself to a intellectual pedstal above my “brainwashed” sisters who wore make up and “opressive” heels and felt sorry for them that they felt they had no choice but to “succumb to perpetrate the the male fantasy of woman”

    BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!!

    I am now 29 and have a whole new view!! How could it be that I went from such an extrme to another? I HAVE LIVED THIS!

    And I KNOW THAT I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE. I know that there are others who find that feminism is a safe place to hide. But it never fulfills that true desire. And it wasn’t until I took a leap of faith and chose to become who I really wanted to be that I became happy.

    What Laurie is saying is that there SHOULD be no right way for a woman to live. And the thing is- A woman is free in this country to do whatever she wants. All Stacy is saying is that just because you are free to do what you want doesn’t mean you can control the outcome.

    WE the women who are in agreement with what this site proposes are simply that. WE find that it works for US. We really love the dialouge with sisters who disagree like Laurie. But we have our minds made up- and obviously the human nature rules are working for us in real everyday life- where the rubber meets the road.

    AND obviously there is a woman who had found happiness using a form of relating to men that WE would not choose. That way is almost the anti-thesis to our way.

    To sum up the matter I would like to say this:

    All of us, I belive- have a foundation of love for each other as sisters. We don’t want to see our daughters, mothers, aunts, BFF’s, sisters, nieces- hurting and in despair. This is where we all agree.

    It is the HOW that we disagree with. Some of us feel it is better to go the traditional route and others like to go the feminist way.

    However, when each individual female finds that a way is not working for her- she should nto be made to feel that she is wrong to choose a way different from our own.

    I just want to see each female living life to her full potenital and truly having joy in life.

    Once again this site does not propose to have ALL and THE ONLY answer. Guy A. Maligned only provides an option, a way that many of us find suitable for us.

    If you disagree- Why don’t you just find a sie that you agree with than badgering us.

    Do you judge us?

  54. Miss Dawn

    Oh, back to the clip I quoted from Lauries previous post:

    I was going to say that I have found in my personal experince – that the act of critisizing something did nothing to change it. It may have changed my view, but based on who I am as an internally feminine female- it was counter productive to what I wanted to achieve.

    I did all the questioning of authority, critiquing, decontructing, fighting, forcing…

    And it only made matters worse for me.

    But that is me. My story. And it is not up for debate.

  55. Miss Dawn

    OH!

    And please don’t call me a box!

    Why do you even care if I am in a box if I am happy?

    Thats what I mean about the self-rightousness of it all.

    You care about being right more than caring about me.

    I love my box. Keeps me warm. Makes me feel good.

    What say you?

  56. Mrs. Pilgrim

    Laurie, I’m just going to throw in, and then go take care of the children of my leader husband:

    Guy is not talking about all men everywhere. He specifies, in fact, that a male will change the conquer-and-ditch behavior due to good mothering, religious beliefs, etc.

    But as the world is now, most guys avoid marriage. And why shouldn’t they? Their mothers never taught them respect; their sisters and female friends didn’t show them how to behave; their former and current “duty sluts” (their term) never taught them about the quid-pro-quo of relationships. The attempt to effeminize them, also, failed miserably; boys are becoming barbarians instead.

    Even with proper training, that nature still lurks in the background. It’s probably the root of capitalism, as well: high-cost items tend to be viewed as having great value, even if they’re only ordinary.

    But that point aside: You gambled on your current husband, and apparently it paid off for you. The odds, however, are generally against. How many of those first-date sex partners did you say you had to go through before you found one who figured you were worth the effort to keep? You may just be stubborn–and perchance a bit insensitive. (And you’re judgmental, but I’ll not go into that.)

    As for myself, I stayed celibate until “Mr. Pilgrim” and I closed the door on the honeymoon suite. He wouldn’t have married me if I had been any other way; he frankly wouldn’t have had anything to do with me if I had been any other way. Of course, he’s a Christian, so…I can see why he’d be much more self-controlled and forward-thinking. (And so very, very good to me and the kids!)

    On the other hand, suitors who went before him invariably were sent their merry way because they weren’t in it for “us”. They were in it for themselves, for gratification sooner rather than later. And why should I have believed that they would hang around after getting what they wanted from me? They didn’t respect me, or else they wouldn’t have tried to pressure me into bed!

    “This isn’t about sex; this is about compatibility. You don’t understand. I can’t commit to the next five years or so without knowing that the sex will be good. You’re so selfish and naive. I can’t believe a woman with a doctorate is so stupid.” “Goodbye boy, I’m not dealing with your manipulative behavior. Don’t call me again.”

    Yes, that was the usual conversation, five years ago. Imagine how many times I’d have lost if I’d given in to that bizarre non-logic. And no, Mr. Pilgrim never asked me for sex during our courtship; he knew I wanted him to think about my other merits. (He also understood, even then, that sex is what you make of it, not some static skill set that never grows with practice…)

    Laurie, my point is, you can complain about it all you want. You can deny it, you can reject it, you can try to do things your own way. You can even enjoy “success” at your own methods (occasionally). But no matter what, human nature is what it is; people sin and are selfish, will be as bad as they’re allowed; boys without guidance to treat women with respect become barbarian tomcats.

    …And more and more women are having to raise children alone.

    It’s about time someone explained to young women how the unrefined male nature operates. I notice you’re still clinging to the wishful thinking that maybe what we’re seeing in young males these days is just an aberration, and really, deep down, they’re just like girls–wanting lasting relationships, hair-braiding, and a few cozy viewings of a Jane Austen film adaptation.

    Yeah, that’s working great–for the many guys who are only too happy to take advantage. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of young women out there are wondering why the long string of jerks they’ve given up to never married them–or never stayed married to them for long.

    Feminism empowered bad men. Maybe it’s time girls tried the methods that DIDN’T lead to 25% of the teen-girl population having one or more STDs.

  57. Lisa

    “Feminism empowered bad men”

    THAT needs to be the title of a blog! :)

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