More reader wit, wisdom, and wisecracks appear below.
“I kept a diary thru my pre-teen and teenage years and as I reflect, those were the most self-respecting years of my life…seems counter-intuitive but it is true.” [Jessica at 1103]
“And, sadly, both men and women tend to sabotage their (potential) future together by trying to get what they want without having earned it, without having built the foundation on which it can stand (or cultivated the garden in which it can grow). The most common cause of this failure is pre-marital sex.” [Ilion at 1102]
“Grind those men and sift their character! XD” [Simplicity Evermore at 1104]
“What fun I’ve had watching the façade the alpha types put up crumble.” [Gonemaverick at 1114.1]
“Both [Christian] men and women are called to be intensely giving and selfless. The difference is where the giving and selflessness is aimed. Women are oriented towards the personal and relational, and their giving is generally aimed at the individual. They nurture and support people in need. Men are more oriented towards the objective—i.e., the world of rules and ideas. They work diligently in the pursuit of knowledge and justice.” [Violet at 1104]
“Today [young girls] watch “Tangled” [new movie] and tomorrow when they find no answers in popular culture, they will come to your website to become “Untangled” [Marianne at 1114.1]
BF realized I am serious when I say no sex before marriage. Apparently he originally thought I was just saying that, but would change it for him. He freaked out claiming that he can’t propose to somebody he’s never had sex with because that’s a big part of a relationship and I’m the only person he would even be this patient for blah blah. But also he “can’t break up with me because he loves me too much and would just want to shoot himself in the face every time he saw me with another guy”. He says he will be miserable either way because no sex until marriage is so long (we are 19) and he will just feel like a worthless piece of crap (I do not understand how no sex would make him feel like a worthless piece of crap. Can you explain?). But if he breaks up with me he would be just as miserable if not more. He said “I’m manning up and saying that we will eventually have sex before marriage because I can’t wait that long and if you can’t accept that then you will have to break up with me because I can’t break up with you”.
I neither agreed nor disagreed with his proclamation. The thing is, he would never physically force me to do anything, so why would I bother doing anything about it? I figure I won’t argue with the proclamation because it makes him feel better, but I won’t follow it. Does that sound like a good plan?
Also, my thoughts on the “feeling worthless because no sex for 6 years” (prob about that long until we would be married): 1. He is trying to guilt me into having sex. Although with this guy in particular I don’t think it’s a conscious effort to guilt me. And/or 2. He will feel worthless before marriage but that will motivate him to marry. And if we do end up getting married, his self-worth will soar because he will suddenly be more than good enough for something he couldn’t have before.
Anonymous-
Why wait that long to get married?
I don’t see why courtship needs to last longer than 1-2 years.
Six years with no sex is a long time for a man who is in-love with a woman….especially a 19 year old with testosterone at peak levels. I can see why he would freak out a little.
As for his feeling like he can’t marry someone he hasn’t had sex with- I would tell him that you don’t define sex as a performance that you need to be graded on. I’d tell him that sex is an expression of your devotion and how good it is depends on how secure you feel in his love. Pressure to perform usually works as a libido-killer for both men and women.
If he defines his worth by his ability to bed women then he needs to adjust his self-image so that it isn’t defined by exploitive behavior.
Violet, thank you for your advice. I completely agree with you about the courtship not needing to last longer than 1-2 years (and we’ve known each other for many years already anyway). We are at different colleges so it wouldn’t be for at least 2.5 years but after that I don’t see why not. Any suggestion as to how I convince him of that without directly saying we get married?
Hmm, maybe next time he whines about it being 6 years until he can get you into bed, you ask why he would refuse to get married until he’s 25.
Thank you ladies, I will put both of your ideas to use.
Anon; Does this guy have a’ good’ man for a father or someone he could relate to that is married? if he did, he wouldn’t be asking you these questions. When guys don’t have good fathers, or mentors, something will be wrong with the marriage anyway–its THAT IMPORTANT. EVEN MORE important than the girl since he is the head of the family by design. Whether we like it or not. Some 20 yr olds though could have good marriages like my friends who are 35 and were both virgins before—Lastly, women cant change men–they are the way they are, or NOT. Take them as they are. His ‘self esteem should be intact BEFORE MARRIAGE.
Boomer babe, thank you for your response as well (and sorry for the late reply, I just realized it was there now).
It’s funny you say that because yes he does have a very good father whom he admires more than anyone. Actually to be honest that was one of the things that convinced me to date him (here I go again using my head instead of my heart haha). I saw how well his father treats his mother and remembered this blog saying he will treat me how his father treats his mother.
Your Imperialness Anonymous,
You say, “I do not understand how no sex would make him feel like a worthless piece of crap. Can you explain?”
Sure. In his competitive masculine world, he’s unable to do what buds do. He can’t keep up with competitors. Without the rewards being normalized, men call it PW, and it doesn’t sit well.
Other than that, I think you’re at a Dead End for several reasons:
• If you’re not keen enough on marrying him for whom he is now—at least torn with indecision about him, school, and sex—then he’s not Mr. Good Enough.
• Peering ahead, how will a wife treat a husband after he’s been kept on a string so long? Six years from now, he’ll be a different man, but you won’t be different. Improving his devotion to convince you into bed, he’ll change while you won’t. I submit his masculinity and your respect for him will drain away. He’s not likely to qualify as Mr. Good Enough then. If you don’t desire intensely to marry him now, he’s not Mr. Good Enough now either.
• You expect him to step up to your lifestyle but reject his tests of you. Neither chasteness nor six years is the problem. He’s got all the problems, and you have none. Again, it’s not sex but the conflicting roles. Such dynamics are intolerable for a man.
• I’m unsure he’s Mr. Good Enough for a woman that WANTS to wait six more years before she marries. School, career, or whatever outweighs his perceived value now. Time won’t improve that value, unless separation occurs.
I suggest you break up now and agree to a formal date six months after the six-year ‘project’ ends. You can see then if devotion to you and respect for him still thrives. Whether it does or not, you’ll know how to proceed. It also gives you an escape from what appears to be an ill-matched relationship.
Guy
Sir Guy thank you for your detailed response.
-The competitor thing definitely makes sense. Especially because I am known among his friends as the girl who won’t give it up to anyone, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they sometimes give him a hard time about it.
-You’re right, I don’t intensely desire to marry him now, but why isn’t that a good thing (the whole “keep marriage off her mind” post?) ? I would marry him because he has shown devotion to me. He drives 5 hours every other weekend just to come sit with me while I study. He’s even agreed to accompany me to church next time he visits even though he hasn’t been since he was a child, and I didn’t even have to ask him twice. And he has the best family values of any man I’ve ever met. So I would marry him, but I don’t “intensely desire” to do so. He would be a good husband, but if it doesn’t work there are other men in the world. Isn’t that what is best for us ladies to do–use our heads first and our hearts after marriage? I’ve been in relationships where I do have the intense desire, and they never last because the guys realized it and lost interest (although we never had sex).
-That brings me to another thought: why don’t I have passionate feelings to marry him when I do enjoy spending time with him and care about him and he treats me better than anybody ever has? It sounds like a good idea, and there’s nothing wrong, so I just don’t know why.
-What do you mean I reject his little tests of me?
Your Awesomeness Anonymous,
We’re playing tag, and I’m IT. He’s a good man for you, so hang on to him if you are able to respect him for who he is and what he does. As to why you’ve no passionate feelings, do more to please him. It sounds like he’s doing all the ‘work’ to keep you. He keeps testing you to see what will work to get you tuned to his thinking. Are you reciprocating with anything close to it? A woman’s love arises from her loving actions.
Tag, you’re IT.
Guy
Thank you again for your [very prompt may I add] response.
Again you are right, he does all the work and I don’t reciprocate. I’m glad to hear there’s something I can do to fix it though, because I would like to have those passionate feelings for him. So I’ll be working on it
I would interpret “6 years” as “possibly never” and then drop hints here and there that if he isn’t interested in marriage that he should take himself out of the running. Make it clear what your life goals are and then say that you are looking for a man who shares those goals and the time-line for reaching them. If he isn’t that man he needs to be honest with himself and you so neither of you waist your time.