- Sex needs no advertising. It sells itself. Advertising it cheapens a woman for everything but sex.
- If she doesn’t dominate the courtship agenda, she won’t have much power in any other arrangement. Except as she imposes it by separating.
- Thirtysomething women without kids lack an outlet for their mothering instinct. So, they parent their man.
- Unmarried sex causes couples to over-commit and under-connect.
- Everybody makes mistakes. Virtual virginity provides recovery for past sexual mistakes.
- Sex does not bond men. That’s why we have marriage vows to shift a man’s focus from crotch to conscience.
- Erotic attire inspires short-term relationships. Her appearance attracts, but after conquest it reminds only of booty.
1292. Keepers for Keepers—Assortment 36
Filed under Dear daughter
Sir Guy,
I have a question regarding no 6 :
Sex does not bond men. That’s why we have marriage vows to shift a man’s focus from crotch to conscience.
I am hearing some men (christian men) say that we should go back to bible times where there was no church service, no marriage certificate and no ceremony. I don’t know but I feel pretty uncomfortable with that.
1) What is the church history or christian history of marriage ceremony? I would love some more information. When I hear christians saying that Rebekah and Isaac slept together and then they had the marriage feast, I don’t know what to say because it appears as if they did do so. Or did they?
2)I am hearing more and more even christian men saying that if a couple lives together for so many years( for example 10/20/30 years) they are married in the sight of God. I am feeling so uncomfortable with these statements but don’t know how to refute them. Also I don’t like arguing with men.
Any words of wisdom would be so appreciated!
Thanks Sir Guy
Your Highness Marianne,
My response is tomorrow’s daily post 1294.
Guy
I’m not Sir Guy, and I don’t mean to usurp his upcoming brilliant response, but I’d just like to respond to this because I think it’s ridiculous – to put it kindly – that Christians would think it okay to circumvent our accepted “customs” for marriage just because Adam and Eve didn’t have to go to the courthouse and get a state marriage license.
What difference does it make how Isaac and Rebekah solemnized their marriage? I’ve heard a similar argument about Boaz and Ruth.
Marianne, I just think those Christian men are misleading you with untruth! As to going back to Bible times when there was no church service, have your friends read the New Testament? Letters to churches? Was it Priscilla & Aquila who held church in their home?
How better to solemnize a Christian marriage than to have it recognized to the full extent of the law. Render to Cesar what is Cesar’s.
Substance over procedure! And that’s not to say that shacking up is avoiding legalism because everything is there but the paper (lie!). I think Sir Guy does a fabulous job of debunking that here.
Lora
Thank you! I feel better I am not the only woman hearing these kinds of things from Christian men. Yes, I have also heard the arguments about Boaz and Ruth too.
I know women can make the world a better place but this sure makes it hard .
The rituals of marriage are important, I think, though most men I meet don’t think so anymore.
Marianne, a few years ago, I wrote this post on my blog, because someone had come to my blog via that question, so I thought I’d put my two cents in. Interestingly, nobody commented on it until January of this year, and since then I’ve gotten quite a few comments! — several like what you’ve said — that “living together” is equivalent to “being married.” It’s not — the Samaritan Woman at the Well in Jesus’ day had been married 5x and was then living with a man who was not her husband. If living together = marriage, then that man would have been husband #6. Nor does just having sexual relations = marriage, since unmarried sex is condemned, and it could not exist if sex = marriage.
In short, I think that marriage ceremonies and legalities can change and vary depending on the culture (and we have Biblical examples of several different weddings), but that we should strive as much as possible to live within societal bounds and the laws of our land. I can come up with no good reason why two Christians should not be legally married if they are going to live together and have sex. It goes against everything in the Bible.
Kathy
You are right! I ‘m going to read your post on your blog after I type this.
The woman at the well is a perfect example.
I tried talking about fornication which is unmarried sex, is it not?
But I was shut down with.. “America’s common law marriages in some states allow for such arrangements to be considered marriage after a number of years.”
I am married myself, but I miss the days when men used to court women.
How much feminism has destroyed, I don’t know if we will be able to get it all back. I think its worth a try but now we have to contend with Christian men as well , not just non Christian men who don’t believe in marriage and its solemn rituals.
Your Highness Marianne,
I don’t see that the quote is relevant. Another lady, Paula, mentions it near by. Both are non-sequiturs. Tomorrow’s post 1294 will help us get back on track.
Guy
Sir Guy
Were you referring to my quote about common law marriages? That was a quote from a Christian man I know. Are you meaning that his quote and your words at no 6 don’t go together?
I apologise. I have been thinking about vows a lot lately and your no. 6
really brought it to mind again. I value the traditional vows spoken in church but if more and more Christian men don’t see the point of these marriage rituals that are solemn and sacred, how can we ladies continue to make the world a better place?
I know right now, some men who profess Christianity who live with their girlfriends.. when questioned, they say they think of them as wives.
So your no. 6 was very meaningful to me.
Your Highness Marianne,
Yes, they don’t go together except when someone ties them together to make a point inconsistent with logic.
Marriage vows have a purpose to shift a man’s focus from crotch to conscience. Common law marriage happens to be a law to settle estate disputes.
Guy
Thanks, Marianne. When arguing “what the Bible/God says” about a certain matter, I try to keep Bible-centered, so what American law says about common-law marriages is not necessarily Biblical. Though American law is heavily based in Biblical principles, part of it is based in old English common law which has its roots in paganism. Regardless, current law does not equal Bible, so if so-called Christian men are trying to justify their living together w/o marriage by pointing to English common law or American laws, then they are not using the Bible and God’s word/laws, so it does not matter.
What I wrote may not win arguments with men, as Guy suggests, but I think it may help you at least stay strong with your own beliefs and personal sense of morality.
I’m looking forward to what Sir Guy has to say [I wrote the blog post in pre-WWNH days, so I'm sure I would write it differently today], but think that one thing I would add to the post if I wrote it today, would be a heavy emphasis on why so-called Christian men should want to give an “appearance of evil,” even if they themselves think it is not problematic to live together w/o being married. The “why” is stronger than the “what.” Paul said if it was an offense to a believer, he’d abstain from eating meat to avoid giving offense; why then do these men think that they can have premarital sex w/o giving fellow Christians offense?
What is “fornication”? I had a guy on my blog try to restrictively define fornication in the Bible as bestiality or other forms of perverse sex, while saying that male-female sex was perfectly all right w/o marriage. [Antidote to that is that the scribes or Pharisees said to Jesus, "We are not born of fornication [like you were],” which certainly could not mean anything but premarital sex.] The problem is, that I’m not sure if fornication is ever exactly defined. My childhood pastor defined it as any sort of extra-marital sexual activity (including premarital sex), and noted that the Greek word “fornicate” is where we get our word for “pornography”; he would have included pornography as a form of fornication. I don’t know how broad the definition should be, but it certainly includes unmarried sex.
Your Highness Kathy,
Thanks, you’ve added great commentary and helped immensely with understanding this subject.
Guy
Kathy
I just came from reading your post. Its very good. Some of your scripture verses and points of view will help me when I next have a discussion with someone. Wish me luck!
Your Highness Marianne,
Kathy provides very good material and arguments. But, to use them is to argue about what’s impossible to impress a man with and achieve victory for you. Too many counter arguments exist and men will just continue to expound their views. The more they argue on their own behalf, the deeper rooted becomes their belief and that ain’t good. Beliefs determine our motivations and reinforced beliefs provide extra energy to resist change.
Tomorrow’s post takes a different, and I think better, approach to suppress such masculine nonsense. Feel free to disagree because it requires practice outside the female nature.
Guy
Thanks, Sir Guy. Can’t wait for tomorrow’s post!
Right now there’s a law for all states that says a woman and doctor can conspire and kill an unborn baby. There used to be laws that said people of different races couldn’t marry. Yes, there was (and maybe still is?) something called common law marriage in this country and others before. What’s your friend’s point?
Your Highness Paula,
Welcome aboard. It’s a great day when another pretty woman signs up for this cruise to WhatWomenNeverHear.
You seem to be asking me for my friend’s point. Which of several friends commenting on this subject? Also, your statement seems to diverge from the subject, so I’m at a loss to know how to respond. Would you mind clearing it up?
Guy
Hi Sir Guy.
I was asking (rhetorically) Marianne for her friend’s point in his arguing it’s okay not to solemnize marriage because there is such a thing as common law marriage.
Abortion is morally wrong but there is a “law” allowing it. There is marriage at common “law” but without the solemnization of a marriage contracted by law. I think it was commenter Kathy above who said Christians should try to live within societal bounds and follow the law. That is what the Bible says! So, I guess my counterpoint to Marianne’s male friend is, so what if common law marriage is legal. That doesn’t mean it’s good by the Bible one iota. Abortion is legal too, but that doesn’t make it right by the Bible.
I’m sorry I made my point so sloppily in my comment above. Don’t know if I did any better with this . I’m sorry it all seems very disjointed but I do think the way you view these things (courtship, marriage, life, justice) makes them interrelated and part of the same subject not to be divorced from one another (no pun intended).
Paula
Your Highness Paula,
Well stated. Clear and relevant. I admire your character.
Guy
Re: your comment to Marianne at 4:35 pm:
I just read Kathy’s blog posting myself and I think what she says is Biblical and one of the best answers I’ve ever seen to all these foolish arguments people of both sexes make about how living in sin is okay. You said there were many counter arguments a man (or woman?) could make to what she said. Are they Biblical? That’s the only question I have.
Maybe asking that is too masculine and will prevent me from bagging a man. At the end of the comment, you heed us to practice disagreeing because it goes against female nature, so let’s call this practice.
Really??
Women over 30 who dont have children parent their men?
Did you do a scientific study on this?
WOW!