2063. Signs of Devotion in the Dating Stage


At post 2055 Her Highness Cinnamon asked for details that reveal a guy’s devotion in the dating phase. That’s easy. There is none except his devotion to his interest and her devotion to her interest. However, there’s always the possibility of a man’s love at first sight. One of the first things that emerges quickly is devotion to her. It’s just an ‘automatic’ phenomenon. (Women don’t love a man at first sight; they just imagine it out of too much anxiety or hope.)

However, I see what Cinnamon is after. What signals a man’s worth to move into courtship and beyond? With apology to her, however, I think more benefit may come from citing things often overlooked by gals enthralled in romantic love.

Therefore, these ‘pointy fingers’ hint at or reveal the unlikelihood that a man’s devotion of almost any woman will develop. That is, red flags unfurl, stormy weather ahead.

  1. He resists or resents just about anything that pleases her. He pleases her only when he wants something. (Which reflects deep self-centeredness and probably selfishness.)
  2. He lacks thoughtfulness, respect, punctuality, reliability, politeness, or even awkwardness or discomfort in his attempts to charm her. (Awkwardness discloses uneasiness about doing something wrong, and so it’s a good sign.)
  3. He lacks appreciation for her humor, presence, patience, housekeeping, job or family obligations, attractiveness (above and beyond the sexual).
  4. He presents her with no evidence that he admires any features, traits, habits, or qualities about her. (Lack of admiration means he sees no virtues in her and men want to marry a virtuous woman.)
  5. He doesn’t please her in order to please himself. (This is tricky. He’s more invested in her when he pleases her to please himself.)
  6. He lacks interest to do what she sometimes wants them to do together. (Such lack of respect signals no foundation for his love.)
  7. He considers her attentions to him to be excessive and has no problem telling her about it. (If she nags about loneliness, she is the red flag.)
  8. He angers easily at her for little things. That is, he ticks off easily. (And you say, most men do. And I say, not if she’s important enough for him. He either values her above his temper or devotion is probably not in the cards. Admittedly, after they marry, couples learn that husband’s temper and devotion are not mutually exclusive like they should be in courtship when his self-control is part of selling himself to her. Wife has already bought into him.)
  9. He shows little interest in contacting her frequently and regularly. (He may have good reason and slowness of initiative should not raise a red flag. For example, it’s tolerable if he wants to keep him in her mind, but preferable if he wants to set her mind at ease.)
  10. He seems unwilling to respect and accommodate both her modesty and vanity. He can’t live with the fairness (normal man’s value) of being punctual to her tardiness fixing up. (In the natural course of things, her tardiness signifies that she’s the more important member of the courting arrangement. If not acknowledged by him, red flags unfurl and courtship is probably wrong for them.)
  11. He exhibits bad habits as she defines ‘bad’ without his showing interest to change just to please her. (Doesn’t mean he has to change at her request but to at least show honest and sincere effort to do so hopefully for the purpose of just satisfying her.)
  12. He prefers the company of buddies over aloneness with her. (IOW, she’s not as respected as his fun or socializing time.)
  13. He lets sex dominate his thinking when around her and when contacting her routinely. (The more prevalent his interest in sex, the less his true interest in her. How can I say that? People get what they think about. Thinking about it leaves less time and words for other things. Until pre-conquest sex with her is hugely secondary, he’s not very devoted to her.)
  14. He resists investing his time, effort, or money in her. He’s single-minded to be super-efficient in their relationship. To produce the most for them at least cost to him. (After they marry, he gets worse. He won her with frugality, he can keep her satisfied (man’s value) while he becomes more successful at it. It’s the man’s nature coming alive this way. He admires himself for every nickel saved. Unfortunately, she pays a huge price for his satisfaction and her inability to earn happiness for lack of resources with which to spread her gratefulness among others.)
  15. He gives too big rather than thoughtful gifts. (Trying too hard to impress her signals that he’s buying her off, which reverses their natural roles. It pushes her into the corner of becoming the seller (to keep gifts coming) rather than the buyer of whatever he has to offer of himself without gifts. Respect is not buried in gifts but in the intent behind the giving. Thoughtfulness reflects his respect much better than his gift. Am I right, ladies?)
  16. He keeps his schedule from her to prevent her knowledge, involvement, or ability to investigate. (It’s natural for men to thus protect their independence and tend to their own business in their own way. It’s a strong instinct proportionally related to alpha, beta, gamma traits.)
  17. He keeps his agenda mysterious and doesn’t even hint at what her role might be in his life if and when they get more serious or marry. (Unwillingness to address her role keeps her closer to the sideline in case he wants to jump out of the relationship. The absence of such thoughts corresponds with unwillingness to fully commit.)
  18. He seems to purposely make himself unpredictable to her. (To be predictable is to lose independence. Men not fully devoted to their woman try endlessly to retain their independence even in small ways.)
  19. He flirts with other women when with her. (Contrary to woman-think, routine flirting does not signify emotional infidelity. Men don’t recognize emotional infidelity as important, and they don’t or can’t empathize with women about it. Therefore, women have to be more direct and teach their man, Thou shall not flirt, period.)
  20. He fails to flirt and tease her tenderly, abundantly, and sincerely. (Then he has little or no interest in making her feel good about herself.)
  21. He shows more interest in other things and people than in her. (He’s just not that into her, is he?)
  22. He sends out signals that she interprets as his using her to advance his agenda. (Does she want to tag along with his agenda?)
  23. He dodges commitment except when tied to frequent and convenient access to sex—e.g., shack up—and dodges even more when marriage comes up. (The female heart is loaded with self-protective reasons to find fault in such a guy.)
  24. He uses words of commitment but doesn’t show actions that signify devotion. (Her heart know this. Words are temporary. Only devotion is permanent. Now, how does she go about helping the former become the latter? Be herself, trust her heart, and rely on her patience and indirectness.)
  25. He attaches little extra value to the ‘us’ side of their relationship. He just can’t truly make her more important than him in his value system. (It does not bode well for her future even if sweetened by his presence.)
  26. He proactively claims both intent and ability to make her happy. (His idea of her happiness is her responding favorably to his leadership. OTOH, if he’s truly into her rather than sex, he’s worried about keeping her (the present) more than promising things (the future).)
  27. He promises her the moon. It’s an indirect invitation to bed. (When men come courting with indirectness, they abandon their direct nature. Women like to hear but should not trust romantic promises. Don’t dump him yet. Wait for his actions to match his words.)

Now, obviously those behaviors are more easily detectable during courtship. But the symptoms can be detected in dating and should raise red flags.

Cinnamon, if this doesn’t respond sufficiently well to your request, let me know. However, I know you ladies read more good signs and red flags in your lives than I can ever imagine. I think reason to veto is more useful. Avoidance usually beats the cure. Women already know how to buy in when they want to believe their date is almost Mr. Right.

During the dating phase, women should look for behaviors that hint that he’s not likely to fit any of those pointed fingers. That is, he’s likely to grow in the direction that leads to devotion. It may, however, be courtship phase before those signs are certain enough in a dating woman’s mind so they don’t rise up and bite her. If her screening and judging stop before he walks to the altar, she has sold herself short.

 

27 Comments

Filed under courtship, Uncategorized

27 responses to “2063. Signs of Devotion in the Dating Stage

  1. samoensand

    This just hit me that I’ve been recently experiencing this type of treatment from the man Ive been involved with for 6 years. I guess it’s time to walk away just a long investment to throw away. 😦

    Your Highness Samoensand,
    Welcome aboard. It’s a great day when another pretty woman joins us on this cruise to WhatWomenNeverHear.
    Guy

  2. MLaRowe

    Love this list. Number 15 is right on the money. Number 27 reminds me of these famous paintings: Before and After by William Hogart http://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-britain/exhibition/hogarth/hogarth-room-guide-room-3

  3. First, I would never rely on verbal signals to determine his sincerity. Words are worthless. Only actions tell you how he really feels. Even if his words are congruent with his actions, it still doesn’t give his words any more value. At the end of the day, only his actions are proof of value.

    Yet women will desperately cling to his words (because most women are verbal creatures, they can’t help it), even if deep in their hearts they know it isn’t true, they will still believe his lies because they want it so bad.

    Most women know the truth. Accepting it is an entirely different matter. They prefer pretty lies over the ugly truth.

    I am appalled at the vast amount of time women waste talking and pretzel-brain-twisting over a man who doesn’t want to marry them or is just not that into them.

    Men in general do not seek long-term commitments (marriage). By default, they seek short-term pleasure and gratification… Until they meet their Dream Girl, then everything changes. They’ll do anything to be with her. Happily so! Little things that were an inconvenience with the wrong woman are now a pleasure with the right woman.

    A man in love is a man in trouble… And he knows it!

    Great list for false signals of interest and discerning his sincerity!

  4. Shermy

    This is the best information you could possible offer!

  5. surfercajun

    5, 6 and 11 could apply to marriage as well

  6. Etu

    Loving this Sir Guy! As someone currently in the world of online dating, I feel I am constantly having to analyze the motives of these guys I haven’t met yet. One guy in particular looks like a perfect match on paper, as we have so many important things and beliefs in common. I can tell that he logs in frequently, and while I respond to his messages after 2-3 days, it usually takes him a week to get back to me despite his logging in regularly. His questions to me are thought provoking. At one point he apologized for not keeping up with our correspondence better but said it “definitely” wasn’t because he wasn’t interested. Something about that just didn’t sit right with me. I don’t want to write him off as him writing me off too soon as we are still corresponding, and maybe I’ve dated too many that jump the gun, but it’s confusing!

    Your Highness Etu,
    Have you read my series Advertising Online for Dates. I suggest it if you haven’t. Lot of tips there to maximize your benefit.
    Guy

    • Cinnamon

      Etu,

      The online dating series is excellent.

      With respect to the following:

      it usually takes him a week to get back to me despite his logging in regularly. His questions to me are thought provoking. At one point he apologized for not keeping up with our correspondence better but said it “definitely” wasn’t because he wasn’t interested.

      Sir Guy says to watch whether a man’s actions are in sync with the words. This sounds like a good example of where they are not, at least by my standards.

      When I used online dating I found that the most “interesting” men were the ones who got back fairly quickly and who moved things along. Only you can answer whether this guy is too much of a “slowpoke” for you, however.

      I would also recommend the Vague and Unavailable series to focus your mind a little more.

    • Etu

      Thank you! Don’t know how I missed that series-Checking it out shortly!

    • Etu

      Thank you Sir Guy!

  7. krysie869

    Beautiful list! I have seen men in devotion, and at times I feel left out. 😦 At least I know what to look for! Although honestly, I can sense that some men could never be devoted to me instinctively.

    One question though: “He presents her with no evidence that he admires any features, traits, habits, or qualities about her.” How does a man admire a woman? It is solely with his actions?

    Your Highness Krysie869,
    He admires her with his thinking followed by belief that he’s right. He spots qualities that he appreciates seeing in a woman, person, date, sweetheart, wife, mother, grannie. The only requirement is that he appreciates that quality as matching or important to his value system and with potential for adding satisfaction to his life.
    Guy

    • Cinnamon

      One question though: “He presents her with no evidence that he admires any features, traits, habits, or qualities about her.” How does a man admire a woman? It is solely with his actions?

      It may differ from man to man, but my Mr Goodenough gives me a lot of compliments, particularly relating to specifics about my appearance. He also complimenys me about the things I do to please him (such as cook his favourite dish, show him affection, implement his suggestions when he advises me on how to solve a problem).

  8. Cinnamon

    Thank you, Sir Guy. I have read this twice and need to read again.

    Would you explain the line between dating and courtship, in other words, how does she know when dating has moved into courtship?

    Your Highness Cinnamon,

    Does it really matter? When she thinks that it’s courtship, she expects more, does she not? She acts different from just before. That puts more pressure on him, which too easily disrupts his thinking about what’s going on between them. Of course, he usually expects the minimum and she expects the maximum in relationship effort.

    So, her best avenue is to just call everything but engagement “just dating the guy.” If he’s a boyfriend let others call him that. It helps her mystery. If he’s in pursuit to capture her permanently, then it’s courtship and she should be pleased enough not to worry about what it’s called.

    Relationship experts sense that they shouldn’t rock a smooth riding boat, and trying to call a relationship by name tends to rock his side of the boat. He wonders if he’s gone too far, which too easily metastisizes suspicion.

    Guy

    • Cinnamon

      Sir Guy,

      Sorry if my question wasn’t clear. The reason I asked is because you mentioned “courtship” five separate times in the article and appeared to be distinguishing it from dating.

      I understand and agree with what you said in the comment that she is better to not distinguish, but I don’t understand why you drew the distinction between dating and courtship in the article itself. I’m sure you have a reason (you always do) but I don’t understand clearly what it is.

      Also, can you comment on a man who declares fairly early that he wants to capture her permanently, when his subsequent actions over a long period of time establish that he is NOT just after sex? Cold this be a case of love at first sight? Or are some men just more bold and decisive in this way?

      Your Highness Cinnamon,

      No specific reason other than trying to distinguish early dating from later when they know each other better. I understand your confusion, but do you think that using them rather synonymously takes away clarity? I’m not against revisions.

      Oops! Now I get it. No, I know of no way to distinguish when dating ends and courtship begins. No line of demarcation. In fact, I think morphing is about the best way to describe the shift. If you have events or whatever that may signal the shift, I ask that you pass them my way. It could help others.

      Guy

      • Cinnamon

        If he’s in pursuit to capture her permanently, then it’s courtship and she should be pleased enough not to worry about what it’s called.

        I think this quote captures the demarcation point where the “morphing” occurs. The question is, what are the signs to look for that “he is in pursuit to capture her permanently?”

        My thoughts:

        It may differ somewhat from man to man, with variables such as a man’s age coming into the equation. I do think “exclusivity” is an important sign to look for meaning, that if a man wants to capture her permanently he will be focused on dating her and only her. There will be no mention of other women, and he will want her to know his whereabouts when they are not together without her asking.

        As a long-term student of WWNH, I understand that she should never ask the direct question “where is this going?” except as a last resort and ONLY if she is willing to walk away. Moreover in nearly all cases, she should be able to infer where he wants it to go (or not go) based on the way he treats her.

        My Mr Goodenough told me he loved me and wanted us to be a couple on the third date. He also cried when he said it. I knew in the back of my mind it could have been a ploy to get sex but it turns out it wasn’t. Since that third date he has never missed a day of direct contact (whether phone, email, etc.). So I’d say he shifted to “courtship” mode very early on in our dating relationship. I think women should be aware that some men are very decisive in this regard. It would be interesting to hear some of the stories from the other readers about how they knew things had morphed into courtship.

        Thank you Sir Guy for giving us the tools to navigate these choppy waters successfully.

        Your Highness Cinnamon,

        Wow! What a marvelous description. You’d be close to top of my list of candidates to help write my next book could I ever get in the mood again.

        I suspect your hubby fell in love at first sight. Ask to see if he will admit it or perhaps I’m wrong. It might reveal something new about men.

        Guy

        • Cinnamon

          Thank you for such a wonderful compliment, Sir Guy!

          Many years ago I was a manuscript editor for a major university press. Even the best of writers benefit from the work of a good editor. It would be a considerable privilege – not to mention the experience of a lifetime – to edit the manuscript for your next book gratis.

          Maybe the new book is something to think about once you are settled into your new home in West Virginia. Whenever you manage to get the ball rolling on the first few chapters just let me know!

  9. Andromeda

    Sir Guy,

    You mentioned in 19 about men flirting with women. As a woman, I may see my man flirting, but it may not seem as flirting to him. This has, many a time lead to me feeling helpless and him not being able to recognize it as anything wrong. If I try to be direct with him and tell him, he brushes it off or says he was not flirting and was just talking. It starts an argument where he would ask me if he should stop talking to women altogether. How does a matured woman work around this without feeling helpless?

    Your Highness Andromeda,

    You feel helpless because you think you have to stop it. Do you? Do you have to call it wrong? Is it really wrong to not call it wrong?

    Set flirting aside for a moment. How about his worth to you in other ways? Good man? Producer? Provider? Protector? Problem solver? Reliable? Responsible? Pleasant to have around? Companionable? Worth his salt as husband? As father? Keep you pleasantly and productively involved caring for home and family? Other than flirting, does he help you harmonize home life?

    Does what appears to be innocent flirting really matter all that much? I know you are probably embarrassed with your female friends. But you took him as your mate, and loyalty should insist that you don’t have to defend him, in which case embarrassment is just playing to the opinion of others.

    So, to stop feeling helpless? First, don’t call it wrong until you see clear and unadulterated evidence that he’s emotionally unfaithful or DEEPLY suspicious that he’s physically unfaithful. Second, quit pinging on him to stop. Close the subject. If you see it provide no feedback that you don’t like it. Let your silence and reduced concern work on his conscience. No guarantees, but if his conscience gets involved you may see behavior change in your favor.

    Proliferate this comment in your life with him. “Men are never more handsome than when they please their lady.” I bet he never gets tired of hearing it, although you may have to find different ways of conveying it: hidden notes in his possessions, quietly before sleep for no apparent reason, to his face in the midst of dining and for no apparent reason, and daily with locked eyeballs for each little task he performs for you. Try it, you might like it. I’ll bet he does.

    Guy

  10. Yes, all of this is good, but is he a good man besides? That is, does he have good work ethics? Is he polite to not only your mother, but his mother and everyone else? (Every boy my daughters brought to meet me have been slimy with politeness to me, but they were not necessarily polite to everyone)

    Your Highness Sharonmaryandmartha,
    Which means your daughters coached the boys well, which means you raised them well, which means their daughters will be raised well. Goodness has a way of spreading among females. You all go further and spread it among males. From my viewpoint that is admirable, which means that you and daughters are virtuous, which means marry-able as men seek to marry virtuous women. That’s the way the world works when it’s working at its best.
    Guy

    • Krysie869

      I see what you mean Sir Guy when the boyfriends of the daughters of the reader above treats her (the mother) with respect. But wouldn’t that be a red flag if the boyfriends treat everyone else poorly? I know you said that men have conditional respect for others, but I am a little confused on what would raise a red flag then for a woman?

      Your Highness Krysie869,
      Sure. If those boys reverse their politeness outside the girls’ home—mistreat restaurant servers for example—women should unfurl a red flag. Women, if they are watching and comparing attentively, can easily spot phoniness and insincerity. They either warn themselves or ignore it to their later disadvantage.
      Guy

  11. gonemaverick

    great summary of everything i’ve learned here over the past 5 or so years. who knew dating could be so much fun when one knows how this “game” works?

  12. Krysie869

    Point number 9 is interesting. I notice that most men who approach me do so when I am completely alone. Why is that?

    Your Highness Krysie869,

    I don’t see the connection with point 9, but I grasp the rest by presuming you mean they are also alone when they approach.

    So no one else will witness your rejection should it happen. He’s unsure of himself or he uses untruths that he wants to keep others from knowing about.

    Guy

    • Krysie869

      The part I was referring to was the one in parenthesis, slowness in initiative. Why would a guy want to slow his initiative to keep her in his mind? Is it to try out other options and come back to her if things don’t work out?

      I can see that for most men who are interested in me, they want to approach, but it is like they are hesitant and do so, like I said, when I am alone. Or they stare at me for minutes at a time and don’t approach at all. Based on what you told me, I am assuming it’s a rejection thing.

      Your Highness Krysie869,

      I’m confused. You keep me going in mental circles. Now I think I know why. You keep looking for and thinking about what you don’t want. No approaches, hesitancy in guys, and possible rejection before you’re approached.

      You’ll always find disappointment at least and misery at most in that kind of thinking. We get what we think about including more of the same. It’s the way the human mind works. At the same time, because we don’t look for it, we get less of what we’d like to see. By not affirmatively expecting to be approached, subliminal signals discourage it. Again, the mind of both sexes works that way.

      I suggest a makeover in your thinking. Spend more time finding out on the blog how to make yourself more emotionally but not sexually attractive, more friendly in demeanor, more smilingly in spirit, more approachable in manner. And especially less suspicious that things will not turn out the way you wish. You have no DIRECT influence over the men you encounter, but you have HUGE INDIRECT influence. Exploit the latter and your anxieties will diminish if not disappear.

      Guy

      • Krysie869

        Thanks!!

        • Krysie869

          I do agree that I think about what I don’t want constantly. It is difficult to stop. I am sure I come across as unsure of myself too which I am sure others read. That is my biggest problem. I always tell myself “action cures fear” but then I fall back into old habits quickly. I became that way before puberty.

          Your Highness Krysie869,
          Yes, I understand how difficult when it you learned it before puberty. Now, as an adult, you can convert with this. Read, analyze, study, dream, and duplicate what you find at VICTORY at blog top. It’s been proven successful to guide people into a different life.
          Guy

  13. Dove

    Sir Guy,

    Is a woman expected to match the man’s effort during the courtship stage, that is, be able to do what he does, like initiate dates, drive to his house to see him, contacting him first regularly, etc.?

    Your Highness Dove,

    No. Quite the opposite. He should pay the greater price to see and hear you.
    If he’s to be your leader, you have to enable and encourage him to lead from day one. Also, his willingness to invest himself on your behalf informs you of his seriousness. Trying to equalize such matters is both female and works against females. It bypasses the conditions that prevent women from recognizing red flags.

    As to bad and good days, that’s life. Moreover, a man’s job usually comes before his woman, so his time passes much faster than yours as you await his initiatives.

    Guy

    • Dove

      What if your boyfriend asks you to come over to his house to spend time together (like see a movie)? I don’t mind as long as he picks me up, but what if he suggests that I drive there instead? I don’t want to fall into the trap of making it too convenient/efficient for him, especially since under normal circumstances he has the capacity to pick me up/drop me off. How do I handle such situations without appearing like a diva?

      Your Highness Dove,

      It all depends on how well developed and successful your relationship has become. How many red flags you’re spotted. How much you trust him. Is it a one-time expectation of his and does he usually pick you up even for flicks at his place? Or, is it a first time date at his place? Are you dating or in courtship with commitments made with sex removed from the arena? How much are you sharing of each other’s burdens? Is he predominantly your caretaker for dates or does he expect you to carry part of the load? Is sex understood to take place or be avoided?

      If you see any or a few of the red flag items in post 2063, you may want to find an excuse not to do what he wants. OTOH, if you’ve already seen signs of his devotion to you rather than wordy commitment or focus on sexual matters, then you might want to do it cautiously and only one time for a test. You can find reasons to define and control development of a healthy relationship. Movie-izing at his place may be something to dodge for awhile.

      As you describe it, there’s no right or wrong answer. Only you can figure out what’s best for Dove. Let what’s best for you and him spin in the wind until you predominantly care for Dove’s interests.

      Guy

  14. “Thoughtfulness reflects his respect much better than his gift. Am I right, ladies?”

    I can always find what I’m looking for in searching this blog. #15 explains why one date’s spending has felt “off” to me. I’ve always been concerned that a man who spends a lot on me will feel entitled to physical intimacy. But I now find that even when that is not the case, it nevertheless feels like another way of shifting the balance of power somehow. It’s almost like, “Well I paid for…so you…” is hanging in the air.

    Your Highness Denise,
    You’re right. That’s why mirror time is so important to crown herself with self-gratitude, -confidence, -importance, and conviction that she deserves whatever he pays. She put herself through a lot of prep time and effort to look her greatest especially for him. If he’s unwilling to pay for that, he doesn’t deserve her, and so she owes him nothing else until he earns it.
    Guy

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