2259. Compatibility Axioms #831-840


831. How females play the sex game dominates the lifestyle of males. Men keep trying to make frequent and convenient sex more easily available. The less loosely women play the game, aka withhold sex, the more men try harder to earn a woman’s acceptance of his worth to her. [284]

832. Low morality promotes a male-friendly culture at cost to female-friendliness. [284]

833. When morality declines, men operate with less female influence. It helps further downgrade social and domestic values, standards, and expectations toward masculine interests. [284]

834. The weaker that women stand up for feminine values, standards, and expectations, the less enchanting their lives become. It creates both social and domestic power vacuums and energizes men to take advantage. [284]

835. Females giving in to ever-increasing male social pressure forces women to reshape the lifestyle of females and children contrary to the instinct and intuition of mothers. [284]

836. Men giving in to ever-increasing female pressures forces men to reshape the lifestyle of males into greater agreement and friendliness with females and their unique interests. [284]

837. If conveying her wants, needs, and desires outweigh his satisfactions about their sex life, she’s not likely to get far without the tenderest charm and diplomacy. [286]

838. She’s in charge of their relationship. Not because he’s incapable, but because he lacks knowledge of her, and men often go to extremes to hide that lack. Moreover, men lack both interest and skill for relationship management. [286]

839. He sees little need for more than he already provides in love making. So, if she’s not satisfied, coaching him may help. However, nurturing demeans and teaching tends to humiliate him, so unique female indirectness and patience are required to resolve her dilemma. [286]

840. Any discussion of their sexual shortcomings can push him toward consequences, up to and including abandonment. It can come without her being aware of what’s coming. [286]

32 Comments

Filed under courtship, Culture & Politics, sex differences

32 responses to “2259. Compatibility Axioms #831-840

  1. Magnolia

    Sir Guy, could you please elaborate on point 838?

    Your Highness Magnolia,
    See your next comment.
    Guy

    • jubilee

      in the old days.. THIS WAS WHY, old ladies told girls NOT TO TELL HIM EVERYTHING.. have some FEMININE MYSTIQUE…..lol

      • Magnolia

        I know, Jubilee. Lol. I wonder what kind of extremes Sir Guy is referring to when he says that men hide that knowledge.

  2. Magnolia

    Specifically where it says: “…but because he lacks knowledge of her…”

    Your Highness Magnolia,
    I used a poor choice of words. Not the biblical form of ‘knowledge’ but just general info about her that he should know having associated with her for some time. Does that clarify it?
    Guy

  3. Magnolia

    Oh, no, Sir Guy. I didn’t take it as that. Thanks for the info, though. Now, about the other question that I asked when I talked to Jubilee, what kind of lengths would men go to hide it? What do they do (examples)? I take it that they do it because showing ignorance of women in general and their woman in particular would make them lose face and hence it’s loss of significance?

    Your Highness Magnolia,
    Yes, your last sentence is correct. But that also presumes they are honest or they could have other motivations.
    Guy

  4. Magnolia

    Thank you. 🙂

  5. Lyndeeloo

    Dear Sir Guy,

    I’ve always enjoyed reading your blog. I’m grateful that the advice for improving communication between the sexes keeps coming! It seems there’s always more for me to learn!

    # 832-843 give me much to ponder as I work out how to handle a situation I’m currently sorting out, but perhaps you would help me even more. I’d like it if you would!

    My fiancé has a group of friends with whom he likes to have “guy weekends”. They are former co-workers. They will meet up and go to a sporting event, concert, or casino, have some drinks, smoke some cigars, stay in a hotel, go out for breakfast the next day, and then go their separate ways. I’m fine with this. I think we should both have time with our friends.

    My dilemma is that he wants me to join in on some of these guy weekends and I don’t want to do it. Here’s why: while they are mostly a group of guys, sometimes there are a few women who go along. The guys have one hotel room and the women another. He describes the women as “they’re all just like one of the guys”, and from their descriptions and photos, I believe him! The whole group (except for my fiancé) are confirmed bachelor/bachelorettes and his description of their views and behavior gives me the impression that they are–rather crass and obnoxious–kind of like frat brothers. This includes the women. I have no interest in going along on one of these weekends and staying a hotel with a bunch of loud, crass women I’ve never met. I’m not sure why he’d want me to, but he says he does. They playboy of the group brought his current girlfriend to their last get-together.

    This group of friends came into his life when he was younger and I understand why they once appealed to him. They’re all older than him, single, and like to party. One of the men has a reputation as something of a playboy, but the women he picks are…not relationship-minded. I understand that at one time, their lives must have looked exciting to him.

    I don’t begrudge him his guy weekends, and have never had a problem with his going, but I can’t fathom why I would join them for one. I’m not one of the guys and have no interest in behaving like one. And honestly, if he wanted a woman who was “one of the guys”, he wouldn’t have proposed to me, so I’m confused about his intentions.

    I’ve asked him why he wants me to go along and he’s told me that he wants them to see me and get to know me. I suspect he wants to show me off.

    One of these weekends is coming up and he wants me to go. I’ve been thinking about how to handle it and what to say. I’d be willing to meet them over dinner or something, but I don’t want to go carousing or stay in the hotel. Would you advise me?

    Your Highness Lyndeeloo,

    You have thought out everything and I see the way you lean. I suggest the following with the idea that if he doesn’t like the way you think and act, he may not like you well enough to remain engaged. (The one loses what he’s got who is most fearful of losing the other when she draws the line—and vice versa.)

    • Don’t alibi for yourself or explain your reasons and don’t complain about him or them or what they do.

    • You’re neither enthused nor comfortable in groups doing various things. It’s just not your lifestyle.

    • You hope he has a good time.

    • You look forward to meeting his friends someday but only one or two at a time over lunch/dinner etc. Individuals can be as enjoyable as groups turn you off.

    • Be silent about what his weekends with the boys could mean for the marriage you expect to enter with him. It’s for another time.

    Something similar to that which fits your personality and relationship may relieve some of the pressure of your dilemma. I know you know this, but his present habit won’t fit very well in your forthcoming marriage. He should decide on his own who he wants most, you or them in their present incarnation.

    Guy

    • Miss Gina

      Your Highness Lyndeeloo,

      “Friends” such as these caused much trouble early in my marriage. Came within a hair of destroying it, in fact. Not just in one way, but from several extraordinarily destructive directions.

      If I were ever in a position to date and marry again, I would screen heavily based on whom any gentleman of interest associated with. (My concern here is not the activities of your guy’s group, which seem OK, but your description of their outlooks/life choices. I also have a concern that he thinks a respectable lady would enjoy this kind of thing.)

      I certainly hope I haven’t overstepped my boundaries here. I just see red flags and would feel remiss in not mentioning them. Just my two cents. Wishing you the best. 🙂

      • Lyndeeloo

        Thank you, Sir Guy. I needed the reminder not to complain or explain. Sometimes I think I explain too much, and my explanations can come across as lectures.

        Miss Gina, you did not overstep any boundaries! I’m grateful for your insight. If my fiancé saw this group of friends more regularly, I’d definitely be concerned. In the (slightly more than) year and a half I’ve known him, he’s only seen them three times, so it’s pretty rare.

        One reason I haven’t made too much of his time with them is because I strongly suspect it’s going to fizzle out as his family responsibilities grow and he sees these guys continue in their bachelorhood.

        Like you, I question why he’d want me to tag along. But I really do think it has something to do with status. I don’t mean to sound arrogant, but I suspect that his “showing off” his fiancé would be a way to show his friends that he’s achieved something they haven’t. He often tells me I’m the most lady like woman he’s ever known, so I know he doesn’t want or expect me to behave like one of the guys.

        As for the future of how his friends might fit in with our marriage, I’ve been pondering that too. I don’t feel that it’s wise to draw a line in the sand and say “stop hanging out with them.” My approach has been to remain somewhat distant and quiet about the whole thing.

        I’m open to suggestions if there’s a better or more pro-active approach!

        Your Highness Lyndeeloo,

        Contrary to behavioral theory of decades ago, parents have little effect in shaping the personalities of children. Those with whom they associate have a much greater effect. When a child’s self-development is favored heavily away from parents in childhood, it carries into adulthood. I say that to make this point about fiancé.

        Much of his personality, values, and expectations have been developed to whatever and whomever he is by associating with his good, reliable, fun-loving buds and friends (with benefits?). As soon as you challenge their credibility, relevance, or influence, his opinion of them upgrades from conviction to belief, which makes you a non-believer and unqualified to judge.

        The fact that you’re not ‘lecturing’ but silent on the subject sends a loud message that should arouse his thoughts that you don’t approve. Maybe not until later, but it will likely register much stronger than if you complain. It’s also your course of action (actually inaction) that will bear the most fruit for you.

        Expect a long time for his associating with you to overcome the attraction of his friends. A purposely extended engagement may help you. In any event, you have all the info you need to make sound judgments about what to do and when to do it. His friends may be the ghost in your life, but women’s relationship expertise includes a ghost-busting feature.

        Guy

        • That Horse Is Dead

          Sir Guy,

          I’m wondering if there could be ANY benefit to her going and seeing just how lady-like he treats her in front of friends and group of women? Perhaps she could state that she will do it once, but not again, as a favor to him. I think this could give her a lot of insight as to the nature of these get-togethers, how the men and women really interact, and see her fiance in a different atmosphere…and how true to his character (as potential family man) he remains or if he becomes someone else. Just my two cents.

          Your Highness That Horse Is Dead,

          I thought the same thing until I realized this. It gives him ammo to use against her after marriage when he wants to join buds and friends (with benefits?) for a weekend together.

          To his mind, her one visit should have convinced her that his buds and friends are not a threat to their marriage. Regardless of her opinion, her defense of marriage is thus weakened. To his mind, she should have learned what he intended for her to learn during her visit. By putting one foot into his pond of water, she is vulnerable to being pulled under.

          I drop this helpful hint to all women. When your soft-hearted nature tells you to try harder to please your man—as in the one-visit situation considered here—don’t look at the present. It’s the man’s world. Look to the future. What will be the likely impact on you several years down the road, deeper in a relationship, and when disagreements arise. Can the consequences of soft-heart today make you vulnerable to his hard-heart sometime in the future? Particularly if unmarried, rely on your hard-headedness in the present day.

          Guy

          • That Horse Is Dead

            Sir Guy,

            When you say, “Be silent about what his weekends with the boys could mean for the marriage you expect to enter with him. It’s for another time.” When is that other time? When he’s planning a weekend with buds (and women) and she has a home full of sick toddlers or babies? I definitely see your point that accepting an invitation gives him ammo for later. However, I also see this as a chance for her to investigate as much as she can about him prior to the altar. Rather than using this as opportunity to please him, she is actually thinking of her future and using it as a hard-headed evaluation as to whether or not this is going to be ok in their marriage (even if only a few times a year). Miss Lyndeloo, I agree with Miss Gina that these kinds of friends are a cancer to marriage. After marriage, whatever is now could become magnified instead of fizzling out. As Sir Guy says, a longer engagement may be beneficial. Or, heed Sir Guy’s words of wisdom that it will take a LONG time associating with you to overcome the attraction of his friends.

            Your Highness That Horse Is Dead,

            You’re right and I’m wrong. However….

            Your reasoning is very woman-like, normal, and considered solid. It comes from a half-century of women listening only to women. Let’s see if listening to a man could improve the situation for a woman in the case described by Lyndeeloo. (Please excuse us for talking about you, darling.)

            You ask, “When is that other time?” When he wants to have weekend with friends with a “home full of sick toddlers or babies.” Yes, when he has to choose between who’s most important because he didn’t make the decision earlier.

            Whenever he makes it, it’s his decision. Unless made independent of his fiancée’s input, weakening his allegiance to buds and friends (with benefits?) won’t be as permanently programmed into his mind and heart as a wife expects it. IOW, she has the burden to shift his emotional fidelity away from others to get it focused more intently on her. Just asking for it won’t cut it. Very tough job at any time but much easier prior to conquest and marriage than after.

            “To investigate as much as she can about him prior to the altar” is sound advice. That’s masculine thinking, do all you can to initiate decisions now. But not sound female-think, which is founded on solid ground of patience, indirectness, and subliminal leadership.

            To join them for a weekend means this: She is unwilling to risk it or doesn’t trust herself to be able to win her fiancé’s full allegiance without involving herself in his life. He receives two messages: a) She’s willing to go along to get along and prevent losing him. It weakens her future; he’ll expect to rule the same way in marital situations. b) She draws no lines of vital exception where he’s concerned. It weakens her marital influence before they marry.

            He doesn’t understand the why of her not joining their weekend because he doesn’t grasp the importance of emotional fidelity to women. He does know, however, that it goes against her nature for him to play around against her interest. So, he slips into management mode to play both ends as men are wont to do, but he lacks the relationship expertise to grasp that his method won’t succeed to give him both of what he wants. She has to teach that indirectly and do it at risk of losing him; or so her nature guides her.)

            To not investigate has the better outcome for her. She draws a line of vital exception now around the thing more important to her than physical faithfulness, emotional fidelity. She refuses to meet and greet people with whom she wants no future association. Without her saying anything against anyone or explaining herself, he’s left with mystery of why she doesn’t act like he would.

            It leaves him with no reason to go against his fiancée; she doesn’t challenge or compete on the issue. It makes her more unique among women, which adds to her fascination, which makes her more promising as potential wife, and which leaves doubt that he can someday bring her around to seeing things his way. That means she wins without their having been any direct competition that would have cause him to rise up to get his way or the highway.

            Whether she investigates or participates in their weekend soiree, it still leaves her without knowing what choice he will make when he next must choose between her and weekend or weekend and sick kiddies.

            To me as a man, she’s far more influential when the chips are down if I don’t know where she stands before the chips fall. If I don’t know how she thinks, I can stand anywhere, with or against her without threat of losing face.

            So, you’re right. Investigation might help. But I think women have a better choice by exploiting their strengths and not doing what men expect all the time. It makes them more unique, fascinating, and well-respected.

            Guy

            • That Horse Is Dead

              Thank you for your patience in explaining, Sir Guy. I’m still not convinced that this would not open the door for many future gatherings where a husband just wouldn’t invite wife and not feel guilt about it at. After all, he invited her once and gave her a chance to get to know his friends and she declined. I will have to think more on this one. Masculine thinking is hard-headed and I thought we were supposed to be hard headed before the altar (as well as honest and blunt) as opposed to so indirect. Sorry lyndeloo that we are using your example, I mean you no harm:)

          • SouthernBelle

            Sir Guy,
            Bravo! This succinct reply captures so much of how my father taught me to approach dealing with men. Always consider “What this may look like down the road?” Blessed to have such wisdom shared by admirable gentlemen.

  6. surfercajun

    Was not sure where to place this…..

    A while back Sir Guy asked us what manly qualities we liked found in men. I remember my response of helping children and how one man reading on the porch with his little girl was so sexy to see! Well, I witness it again on a Sunday morning stream from a church in Dallas. Without thinking, I saw this guy remove his guitar strap…at first I was unsure why because this other dude was giving an announcement on stage and the camera cut away. But when the band was brought back, THEN I saw why. A young lady was given a small part to play while on stage with her cello…( think it was a cello ) I was amazed because that meant this guy had to climb or jump down from a rather high podium to help. There was someone closer but this guy did it automatically! There were three guys in the back. Two guitar players and one base player but only one I saw helped. Not to say the other guy that was closer and on a smaller podium did not offer, but I did not see what I saw before the camera cut away. This was the same guy I saw years before stop playing his set to help a little boy in which all the women’s eyes stopped right on him (including mine) along with a few women’s “awwws”

    When guys do that do they realize that stops just about any woman’s heart? Suddenly he is the biggest Mr. Sexy in the room!! IT might sound like I am gushing over this man, but we take this act for granted at times for our viewing pleasure but to see this in action just touches my heart on so many levels. IT should soften our hearts to see it, but perhaps for me, it means something deeper and it never gets old. I wanted to put this down as a record of sorts for others to read and realize this man did what so few others do but do not get recognized, or much less even shared. THIS should be what women talk about, not what the latest gossip is over other people’s misery.

    Wasn’t there a story about a black man that helped a lady and it was posted ( someone was telling me about it) on social media and the guy’s employer read it and gave him a 1,000 dollars? I think a 1,000 women should have said thank you (but perhaps he needed the money?) I was not sure on what to think about giving money for acting in a gentlemanly like manner, but while I am sure this is a nice ending, I don’t believe one should expect monetary value in helping someone. No matter what the color the gentleman is sporting.

    I guess all of my ranting is basally this. Let’s take the time and really look at the gentleman that helps us open that door, brings out that heavy bag of dog food, or our groceries to the vehicle, and REALLY thank him with good eye contact, smile, and a sincere compliment that Sir Guy teaches for our unsung heroes…..

    The kindly and kingly gentleman.

    Perhaps it was a man that made the comment of, “Actions speak louder than words.” …if so, aren’t men wonderful? 🙂

    • publicdisplayname

      Oh Lisa you have no idea how much this touched my heart. I’m still discovering new things about you daily. I cannot wait for your divorce to be final and we start our life TOGETHER!! I love you! Dandy

      Your Highness Publicdisplayname,

      Welcome aboard. It’s a great day when another pretty woman joins us on this cruise to WhatWomenNeverHear.

      If you get a chance, tell Surfercajun that she is missed on this blog. Sure like to hear from her again now that she has a new boyfriend.

      Guy

  7. Lyndeeloo

    I may have already nipped this in the bud–or at least put down the ground work 😉

    When my fiancé told me that one of the guys brought his girlfriend, he said, “And next time, you’re coming along!”

    I said, “I am, am I?”

    To which he replied, “Well, not if you don’t want to. It’s not like is force you to do something you don’t want to do, but I’d like you to come.”

    When I asked why, he said he wants his buddies to see me and for us to get to know each other. I then asked why he’d want a girl along on guys’ weekend. He said again he wants them to meet me. He said that their next get-together is closer to our neck of the woods and it would be the perfect time for me to come along. I asked what that would entail–dinner, staying the night, drinking, etc.? He said, “Well, yes.”

    I asked if he was planning to provide a separate hotel room for me and he said he’d room with the guys and I’d room with the girls. I replied, “Why would I do that? I’ve never even met them, so why would I share a hotel room with them? I wouldn’t be comfortable and my discomfort would be obvious enough to make everyone else uncomfortable too. How would that be fun? I’d be happy to meet them for dinner, but why would I want to stay the night?”

    He had a perplexed expression on his face and then said, “Then let’s forget about your coming along in September. I don’t want to pressure you to do anything you’re not comfortable with. I would like you to meet them, though.”

    We sat in silence for a few minutes and then I changed the subject.

    How’d I do?

    Your Highness Lyndeeloo,

    You did just fine. He’s not to blame; you smartly made the problem your sensibility against carrying on with strangers. He may not especially like the outcome but he respects you more for standing up for yourself. It will make him assess which way to turn, who to favor in the future, which applies self-pressure to determine who has the greater attractiveness in his life.

    Now he knows where he stands in the middle between you and his weekends away. It’s an unstable condition and he has plenty of time even after the September weekend to mull over how he will handle you and certain weekends with you not participating.

    His weekend with girls present is adolescent adventuring. If he favors his weekends over you, sooner or later if not already, friends will provide benefits. As I recall you said they are all singles, so what can one expect to develop if not already?

    To marry him without his giving up his weekends WITH GIRLS PRESENT is to accept that it’s okay if he decides to carry weekend events into a little sex should the situation arise. You can expect him to try to keep that option open if he can. You still have work to do later to convince him otherwise.

    Guy

    • That Horse Is Dead

      Sir Guy,
      Now that you explain it this way I am convinced that avoiding the weekend is the better, womanly option. If men don’t understand emotional infidelity, my concern was heading into a marriage that appeared to rely on complete indirectness about weekends with women — that while not ok for her, may still be ok for him. I thought spending time on the weekend would reveal the true nature of these events instead of wishful thinking that all is innocent and these women (or men) have pure motives. Now that you say not to head into marriage without him giving up weekends with girls present I feel much better:)

      Your Highness That Horse Is Dead,

      Yes, she relieved his pressure on her. Now, the pressure shifts to her to decide between marriage and his qualification to win her. I think her success will be determined more by his maturity to give up adolescent adventures than by anything else.

      If he won’t go into marriage under her no-weekend condition, he’s unworthy. It’s not her fault that he’s unqualified for her; it’s her fault if they marry and he later cheats on his weekends.

      Since he now has to choose between marriage and weekends (or at least it looks that way), she’s in a stronger position than before she drew her line in the sand.
      Before that he had to choose between her and friends, and his arguments too easily convince him he’s right. Now, he faces his future life vs. fun and games. So, I think maturity or lack of it will tell him what to do and she can decide accordingly.

      Guy

      • Cinnamon

        Sir Guy,
        What incentive does he have to give up the frat boy weekends entirely? Even if he never asks or expects her to attend again, he may still continue to go on his own. How should Lyndeeloo handle this?

        Your Highness Cinnamon,

        He has proposed, so just let the engagement lag to see how he responds. When he does, ask about his future plans about weekends. Let him walk his way into further obligations and promises to her in order to get the marriage underway.

        See, he thinks now that they’re engaged he only has to sit back and she will want to set the date (if not already set) and let her orchestrate the wedding. But if she doesn’t move ahead but let’s it lag, what does he conclude without her saying anything? Her eagerness for a date or altar has faded. What’s he to think?

        Whenever the convo gets around to his weekends, he’s left with the condemning thought that there’s a hangup and it’s his plans for weekends with girls. Therefore, the hold up is his fault and she’s not said anything but to keep the dialogue open.

        Then, let him mull all that over and take his choice, her or them. When he figures it out, it has a much greater influence inside him.

        She in effect silently puts her foot down that hell no, weekends gotta go! His conclusion, not her demand. He’s a man and the decision is in his lap. If mature enough he will likely promise something acceptable to her. She only has to choose ahead of time what she will accept or no.

        Anyway, that’s how I think it’s handled best to maximize likelihood of success for her after marriage.

        Guy

        • That Horse Is Dead

          Lady Cinnamon,
          I get the impression, and perhaps I’m wrong, that the issue is not so much the activities with his men friends, but whether the women are present. So, she’s not asking him to give up weekends with friends, just mixed company overnights/events. I’ve read about married men who won’t even drive in a car with a female co-worker alone because of the impression of impropriety. If he’s mature, he will be able to see her perspective. If not, it’s a serious red flag of things to come. If he promises before the altar not to participate and then later does (lies to her about it), I don’t know how you could safeguard against this pre-marriage aside from a longer engagement period to hopefully uncover more of his character in different situations. As a side note, I have male churchgoing friends in their 30’s and 40’s, and a weekend with the guys is considered hunting, camping, or some other nature adventure. I also know men in their 40’s who continue to live like they are still in high school and college (casinos, bars, and lots of women). There’s a big difference.

          Your Highness That Horse Is Dead,

          Re: “I have male churchgoing friends in their 30’s and 40’s, and a weekend with the guys is considered hunting, camping, or some other nature adventure.”

          For wife to deny such innocent (no women involved) partnering for masculine adventures is to morph him toward a bore for her and boredom for him in the home. Not all of a man’s ambitions are job and home related.

          I will admit too that some husbandly ambitions arise out of getting away from the little woman for awhile.

          Guy

          • Cinnamon

            Thanks for the clarification, THID. It was very helpful.

            I guess my question to Sir Guy should be reframed to ask what Lyndeeloo should do if he insists on going solo to these mixed boy-girl frat weekends. I imagine if the pattern continues and he doesn’t self-correct soon it will be a deal-breaker.

            Your Highness Cinnamon,

            Each insistence to attend this and subsequent weekend soirees sends loud messages about his intentions regarding her and future weekends. I suggest she let him stew over the disturbance of his dedication. Dedicated to friends or her? Once he decides it’s her to whom he belongs, he’s not likely to go back on a commitment made entirely on his own recognizance.

            If she interferes directly, the chip goes on his shoulder and she becomes the one at fault. He will prepare to fight the battle the rest of their lives together and he will be determined to win.

            (Men won’t accept losing to their wives (expected wife now) if it can possibly be avoided. The wife wins by never letting it become a battle, never her against him directly; she outsmarts, out-waits, and out-maneuvers him. If a battle is not avoided, and sometimes even if he wins at significant cost to his dignity, then some form of retaliation is required sometime, someday to ‘balance his books with a competitor.’ Remember, I’m talking about his nature and not his personality. Only Lyndeeloo can properly play her cards according to how she reads the likelihood of a ‘revenge’ spirit being present in his personality.)

            If he attends in spite of her umbrella of silence, he stews all weekend as to whether he’s doing the right thing or not. As long as he stews about it and it could take months and counsel with his friends, the more likely his decision will favor her. If she objects directly, he has to prove to himself and his friends that he’s his own man, which doesn’t benefit her.

            I tend to agree that if “he doesn’t self-correct soon it will be a deal-breaker.” That’s her decision as to time and method. The delay of “soon” gives her much more feedback as to what he’s likely to be like if they marry. She will more clearly be able to assess his character in light of what she expects from a husband.

            Let’s put the spotlight at the root of our ambivalence as students, cheerers, and advisors of Lyndeeloo. You and That Horse Is Dead favor resolving the issue now, which makes her appear to be decisive and knowledgeable about getting what she wants. It has other benefits too.

            My position is this. For her to dictate is to ultimately lose, to mandate is to make him an enemy, to push for his commitment to her expectation is to make her the enemy of his weekend friends. She may get a favorable short range decision and they marry happily. But, it will register with him as a loss to her, which can trigger a nudge of bitterness. It may linger and sooner or later he will resent and possibly retaliate and she may never know how, when, or why.

            Guy

    • Miss Gina

      I like it, Miss Lyndeeloo!

  8. Lyndeeloo

    Dear Sir Guy and ladies of WWNH,

    Please pardon me for the length of this comment.

    My fiancé had his guy get-together this past weekend. He knew from our conversation last month that I would not be going, and of course, I did not go.

    He returned on Sunday and we had dinner together. Over the meal, we visited about our respective weekends. There are a few things that really bothered me.

    FIRST THING:

    Him: They want to meet you, and they say that you should come along next time. Then they said, ‘unless she doesn’t want to meet us or something.’

    Me: How did you reply?

    Him: I said, ‘Of course she wants to meet you!’ But they just gave me this weird, disbelieving sideways glance that suggested, ‘yeah, sure she does.’

    The conversation continued from here, with prompting from him for me to join him and his buddies on Halloween for another guy weekend. I refused. It was a rehash of the conversation we had last month.

    SECOND THING:

    My fiancé and I have plans two Saturdays from now to take a tour of an historic site. He told his buddies about it over the weekend, and one of them said, “That sounds like fun! Maybe I’ll ask my girlfriend if she wants to go, and we’ll join you.”

    My fiancé told me that he hopes his buddy won’t go, because he’s looking forward to spending the day with me. Then he said something that makes my blood boil.

    Him: It’s not just that I’m looking forward to a day just for the two of us, it’s also…that I…well, I don’t know…I guess it’s not like he’d try to sleep with you, but…

    Me: (shocked, very quietly) What a thing to say.

    Him: If he were still single, I wouldn’t put it past him. But now he has a girlfriend.

    Me: You and I are engaged and he knows that. Are you saying that you think–knowing we’re engaged, he’d try to pick me up, if he was currently single?

    Him: No. Well…maybe.

    He continued on this topic for a while, relating to me what a reputation as a pick-up-artist his friend has. I asked him if he admires that quality in his friend. He said, “No. Well, I might have back in college, but I don’t now.”

    THIRD THING:

    There were three women along on the “guy weekend”.

    A note about the women: They average about 15 years older than my fiancé and they are masculine and obese. I’m not so much worried that he would seek a friends-with-benefits relationship as I am angry and concerned that he seems to see no problem with an engaged man going on trips with a group consisting of all single adults of mixed company, who–as it turns out–all stayed in the same cabin. Two of the women slept in one bedroom. My fiancé and one guy slept in the other bedroom and two men and one woman slept in the living room.

    I’m angry because:
    1). He pressured me again to give in and go on a guy weekend, even though I have made it clear where I stand.
    2). I did not like the things he said about his friend trying to pick me up. I didn’t like the crass nature or ambiguous connotations of his comments. What is he suggesting about me? About his friend? About himself by his choice of friends?
    3). There were three women along on the “guy weekend.” Prior to the trip, he told me there might be one woman on the trip, but he wasn’t sure.

    I feel pressured, disrespected, and angry.

    I didn’t say much on Sunday, but I’ve had some time to stew. So, I’m wondering how best to proceed. Should I speak to him in person? Confront him about these things/my concerns/my feelings? Say nothing until the topic comes up again?

    Perhaps I should add that I feel a strong desire to just really let him have it.

    Your level-headed wisdom would be so gratefully received.

    Your Highness Lyndeeloo,

    Her Highness Cinnamon just below describes a good strategy to follow. Naturally, it’s designed to keep your fiancé.

    I offer the following only as an alternative.

    If you cave in and agree to attend next time, you will have lost some of his respect for not standing up to conviction that caused your earlier resistance. Water down your standards and you may keep him but how will the marriage turn out if he knows to just keep badgering you to get his way?

    You say, “Perhaps I should add that I feel a strong desire to just really let him have it.” Sounds like your heart speaking. However, do it only if you’re willing to pay the price of losing him.

    It will likely turn out in favor of the one least fearful of losing the other. The most fearful will change. So, let the size and number of red flags determine your risk. If he refuses to honor your standards and drops you, he’s not all that into you anyway. His guy friends mean more to him, which bodes ill for marriage.

    OTOH, unless you stop his ‘guy weekend thing’, you will be plagued for life with him as he listens to his buddies’ hints and suggestions for how to treat you in order to please them. It signifies that they lack respect for him, as they won’t honor his leaving you behind. It also signifies some lack of respect that he won’t honor your wishes without trying to (endlessly?) convince you otherwise based on how others outside your relationship may feel.

    Plan this for delivering the piece of your mind. Don’t belittle, blame, or even mention friends or him or demand his abandoning the weekends. Let him figure out his solution to your being upset. Explain that you are the one who can’t live with the expectations of people who add so much pressure to your life.

    After you unload on him, close with this: ‘If my standards and expectations are too high for you, perhaps we should call it quits’. Don’t explain further, don’t complain, and close the dialogue. Give him time to think it over.

    Again, it’s high risk, but you will find out whether you mean more in his heart than his weekend friends. It’s time for him to quiver before your ire or escape before he embarrasses himself further. If you can’t put your foot down over this, how tolerant and respectable will husband be about important things to wife?

    Guy

    • surfercajun

      I don’t know why, Lyndeeloo

      …. but your story makes me think of something that happen to me while in Fredericksburg, Tx one Saturday. As usual, I went into Mar Silver Jewelry shop. Our usual gal is no longer there (moved…I loved that gentle sweet Christina!) but another person. I was near the bracelets and opened the case and removed one. (I could in the past) we were good customers. It seemed almost imminently this pony-tailed guy with a dirty cloth came up to me and said,” When people touch this I have to clean it.” (in a rather matter of face voice) Shocked, I set it back and looked at him wide eyed. (I am sure my jaw must have dropped at one point as well) He picks it up and proceeds to polish it, setting it gently back and remarked, “There, can you see the difference. Now is there something you want to see?” (in a more pleasant sounding voice) I walked around the display on the opposite side and walked toward my spouse. “No thank you” was my only reply. At one point we leave and I am visually shaken. When asked what was wrong I stumbled out with my words saying that I felt as though I had been …scolded for looking at a bracelet relaying what had transpired…. I am not sure if I could have said much more or done much else other than leave. My spouse said he would write to the company about the man’s rudeness as we walked along the street, but honestly I wished he would have gone back and told off Mr. pony-tail… Was I wanting to much? I quietly cried in another store but perhaps it was silly of me. I felt rejected on two fronts….. I should just wait patiently shouldn’t I?

      Femininity is difficult to work at….sigh….

      I would appreciate ANYONE’S thoughts on this.

      Your Highness Sufercajun,

      You need to adopt — and practice till it’s on the tip of your tongue — a way to fight back to calm your nerves. For example, what if you are ready with something like this:

      “You know, sir, men are never more handsome they when they know NOT to scold a lady.” Or, “…NOT to embarrass a lady.” Or. “…NOT to give a lady credit when it’s deserved (or for knowing what and how to do something).”

      Do it boldly and then depart the scene before he can respond. It leaves you in control and discourages depressive thoughts about yourself.

      Hubby will also respect you more. Not for rescuing but for standing up for yourself.

      Guy

      • surfercajun

        ohhhh….. @ Sir Guy

        I understand now! Yes, another learning curve for me to take hold of, practice, and put to good use. 🙂 I should always be ready to rescue myself!

        Make a quiet scene then quickly leave…. Sometimes my old ways creep back into the playlist. I had asked some other women and their responses were of course shock, then…. like one stated, “If i don’t touch, I don’t buy!” (but I think this would have be stated in a rather loud tone which I DON’T want)

        I feel yours has more of a zinger attached to it which I will enjoy practicing and saying… to any male of my family, my acquaintance or stranger.

        Men are never more handsome when giving solid sage advice helping women save themselves. 🙂 ….this is truly appreciated!!!!

    • Cinnamon

      Lyndeeloo,

      Absolutely do not cave in under any circumstances to his demands. I agree with everything Sir Guy says–we differ only on delivery method (very indirect vs. a bit more shock and awe) The reason I suggested a softer approach is because elsewhere you have written about how deep your bond is with this man, and how he can be very demanding and is at times able to push emotional buttons. I thought a softer approach would leave you feeling a bit more in control.

      • That Horse Is Dead

        Lady Lyndeeloo,

        My red flags and alarm bells are flying. Do not cave. That being said, it’s not time to throw in the towel. However, the first thing that crosses my mind with the comment about the friend who is into PUA who may try to sleep with you is “swingers.” It’s unbelievably common and (on some level), I wonder if there is any possibility that he is feeling you out about the possibility for open relationship in the future. I’m not trying to introduce something that isn’t there — but I literally have been shocked (mouth open/jaw dropped) at the number of parents at my children’s school who openly “swing.” They just swap girlfriends and wives as a lifestyle. It seems really odd the way he phrased it to you like he was looking for a response. Second thought is that I think the best approach is to just begin slowing down the wedding plans as was discussed previously (reread Sir Guy’s comment). I think no announcement or shock and awe. Just slow things WAY down and keep looking to your future. Honestly, if 6 months or a year from now he’s pulling the same shenanigans and not making progress you’ve got your answer. He should be making progress over time. After marriage, you get what you marry AND his friends. At least now, you have a choice. Continue being the best feminine woman you can be, growing with God and doing things that bring you peace, and see if he plays catch up or not. As far as the women who are badgering him about why you didn’t come, they want to see the car wreck so they can console him. You were probably the topic of their conversation half the time. Don’t stoop to their level by giving them the satisfaction of a single complaint about them. It’s between you and him and none of their business.

  9. Cinnamon

    Lyndeloo,

    This is tough. It does underscore however Sir Guy’s axiom that long engagements work in a woman’s favour. Think of it this way: you are learning about who he is, which tells you what he would be like after marriage.

    I don’t think shock and awe is the best strategy here (others may differ). I would do the following:

    1. First thing. If it comes up again I would give him “the look” and say “those weekends are definitely NOT my thing.” If pressured to discuss, reiterate with “the more I hear about them, the more I realise they are just not my thing.” Don’t explain, don’t complain.

    2. Second thing. Same thing with the friend. It says nothing about you, but perhaps it says something about his choice of friends, and therefore him. I would perhaps ask more pointed questions about this friend if his name is mentioned again, but without appearing to interrogate. Has he had a conversion experience and repudiated his former PUA life? If your fiancé equivocates I would remain cool on the subject. I would agree to get together with them for an afternoon if your fiancé asks but let him know in a subtle way that although you will be polite, this should not be taken as an endorsement of his character (presuming you have not been informed of a conversion experience). Be polite but not overly friendly during the day out.

    3. Third thing. It’s the same as the first.

    Read Sir Guy’s advice to you again on this thread. I think indirectness works best here, but I don’t like the signs this man is showing. He is going to have to make a decision in the coming weeks and months how much he wants you. Give him room to make that decision without demands, nagging, etc. but stand your ground. Defending your standards or trying to convince him to agree with your reasoning puts you in the role of seller, which at this point you are not. It also puts you in direct competition with him, something that should be avoided. Hopefully Miss Gina, MLaRowe, and others who are married can advise further. Your instincts are telling you something is wrong (and not with you) and you are wise to trust them. Good luck.

    • Lyndeeloo

      Dear Sir Guy and Ladies Cinnamon and Sufercajun,

      Thank you for your thoughtful responses! I must hurry to an appointment now, but you’ve all given me much to think about. I’ll do some thinking and sorting of my thoughts (and further questions) and be back later this evening or tomorrow.

      With gratitude,
      Lyndeeloo

    • That Horse Is Dead

      I agree on all points here as well with Lady Cinnamon.

  10. Lyndeeloo

    I’ve been under the weather and away from my computer for a couple of days, and wow! Lots of interesting discussions have been happening here on the blog!

    Here’s what’s happened in my little corner of the world:

    I saw my fiancé a couple of evenings ago and I was careful not to get in his face, but just see how things would play out. We had a mostly pleasant evening, although, there was a bit of tension. I’ve been trying to have a non-reactive and silent attitude about the things that have been bothering me. I think it resulted in a bit of distance on my end and some confusion on his.

    At one point he asked straight out what was wrong, and I calmly and succinctly told him that I’ve been upset about a couple of things. 1). I didn’t like the repeated pressure to attend guy weekends 2). I didn’t like the talk about his friend and me or the way it made me feel.

    He became defensive, which was to be expected. His response was a bit angry, abrupt, and rude. He was angry that I’d been upset for a week and hadn’t told him. He complained that he’d been feeling grumpy, couldn’t figure out exactly why he’d been grumpy, and was irritated that I had seemed to be too preoccupied to give him the attention he’d wanted. He didn’t think he’d pressured me to attend guy weekends, but that he’d simply re-opened the discussion. He didn’t think I should be so sensitive. He was angry that he thought we’d had a nice evening, and I’d been upset without telling him, which he said made him feel like a jerk. He suggested that I always ought to tell him immediately when and why I’m upset.

    I didn’t argue, but just stuck to these basics: 1). I don’t do guy weekends. 2). I don’t like pressure to do things that I’m not comfortable with. 3). I don’t like disrespectful comments directed toward me in any context, and that this particular context (his comments about his friend and me) made me uncomfortable and upset.

    Then he had to leave because he had a work commitment. The conversation lasted about 30 minutes, which is a record for us. In the past, similar conversations have stretched out and become very frustrating and exhausting.

    The next day, he sent me a message while he was at work. He apologized for his angry and rude response. He apologized for comments and pressure that made me uncomfortable. He asked if he could see me. We saw each other again this weekend and so far there has been no more discussion of my attendance at guy weekends, he has not made rude comments, and there’s been no mention of that particular friend.

    Relationships seem to require constant learning about oneself and the other person.

    I’ve struggled for a long time with the concept of don’t complain/don’t explain. In the past, it has seemed like my discontent has spurred long, emotional conversations, almost immediately at the time that I became upset. I’d get upset, he’d ask why, and it would turn into a big thing. Perhaps I was too eager to share my feelings and point out his “mistakes” from my point of view. This time, there was a week of mild tension between us (and a good deal of inner anger on my end). But in the end, the argument was brief. Is this how don’t complain/don’t explain is supposed to work?

    Your Highness Lyndeeloo,

    You ask, “Is this how don’t complain/don’t explain is supposed to work?”

    Effectively, yes. You can swallow anger and deal with it better by yourself over time than expressing it for one simple reason. Complaint triggers defensiveness in him, which starts competition and men fight their hardest to prevent losing a mental battle to a woman. Explanation provides new ammo for him to counter with and use in his defense, which enables him to get ahead of you in the competition.

    Consequently, both complaint and explanation help him get his way when you want to get your way. Silence and indirectness are powerful tactics for a female to get her way in the end. If she thinks she has to get her way in the present dispute, complaint and explanation work directly against her. Whatever she can defer enables her to more likely make things turn out in her favor.

    Guy

    • That Horse Is Dead

      Lady Lyndeloo,

      It sounds like you applied the Ben Franklin principle that Sir Guy describes in post #878, “Ben Franklin guides us well on this point: He said the way to help people out of poverty is to make them uncomfortable in it. Women can make men uncomfortable in their immaturity and thus enable greater maturity.” I wonder if this could explain his feeling grumpy without knowing why.

      • Lyndeeloo

        Sir Guy,

        Thank you for the feedback. I wonder if it will take a while for DC/DE to “feel” right. Don’t get me wrong; I was glad not to have a long, emotional talk! But there is a part of me that receives a sense of relief from letting it all out. Maybe that part of me is just relying on the old habit, and maybe it will take time and practice to replace it with a better habit.

        And Lady THID, I wondered that very same thing!

        Lyndeeloo

        Your Highness Lyndeeloo,

        Allow me to confirm your thinking. NOT “letting it all out” is one of the more attractive qualities of femininity. As with so many female qualities that a man admires and become virtues to him, restraint is a common characteristic.

        She doesn’t nag. She doesn’t yell. She doesn’t demean. She doesn’t criticize. She doesn’t compare him with others. She doesn’t weaken his belief in himself. She doesn’t mention negatively his sexual performance. She doesn’t complain about his providing/protecting. She doesn’t….

        NOT doing what she wants most to do but senses that restraint is best, those are some of the feminine qualities that carry the most weight with a man.

        He can face truth. However, if he believes his wife’s negative opinions are truth, then he has failed at husbanding/fathering. Thus, his resistance is automatic and tremendous.

        If he believes her, then the self-admiration that previously motivated him to provide/protect is undeserved. The self-satisfaction he earned must be false. The significance he accumulated over the years with her crumbles. In effect, if he has to accept her opinions as truth, he’s a failure. (Some men can resist that ‘truth’ much better than others; they just don’t believe what their woman says, which means her words are waste.)

        A woman’s restraint prevents such damage. She finds ways of ‘correcting’ him by using positive reinforcement of his good qualities. It’s a major way she exploits her feminine strengths of indirectness and patience and the silence that is connected to both her modest and mysterious nature.

        Women like to think they are the sensitive gender. About most things they are.
        However, not about a man’s acceptance of his woman’s negative opinions. I’m not supporting it, but wives can and do tolerate cutting remarks and put downs much better than husbands. It’s because their interests are so different regarding time. He focuses on what’s happening NOW and he can handle what comes next and forgo what it means for the future. She focuses on what every little thing means for her future, and so she finds it easier to show restraint today.

        So, your developing the habit of NOT “letting it all out” should serve you well.

        Guy

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