2361. MGTOW: Men Going Their Own Way

At 2360 Her Highness Anon… asked: “Does anyone think the MGTOW movement will get popular or is it because modern women don’t know how to get the men to marry them?”

Both Eric and Some Other Guy are better observers of current social and domestic practice than I am, so I hope they join in.

Much of what women think they know about men is wrong. Women may listen to men but heed only what other women say. Women have cred but men don’t. They heed political activists and political correctioneers, who also hide the impact their propaganda has on men.

The political movement that follows feminist thought is so full of put downs on men, insults to their nature, that they have few ways to soothe with mental ointment the ego-busting disbelief of women in masculine significance. It’s the primary cause of Men Going Their Own Way.

Will it get more popular? Yes, if we don’t change the political direction by which this country is governed. But that’s another story.

MGTOW is the result of men unwilling to accept PC expectations and the societal fallout of Feminism. They refuse to accept as okay having to put up with what they see as insulting, insufferable, and intolerant women. It’s their worldview, which is a belief, which is a major factor beneath human motivation.

Armed with laws, public opinion, and PC backup, a growing number of women offend men. They tromp easily on what they call the male ego but bellyache about men tromping on female sensibility. Women expect sensitivity but too easily withhold it from men. Example: They autocratically blame men for both social and domestic problems; ‘men are just no damn good’. That thought floats in their subconscious mind to underwrite blame for what every guy does wrong.

Although the only relationship experts, women don’t work out issues on a couple basis. Rather, they use government, public opinion, legal threats, and political correctness to apply pressure to get the woman’s way. IOW, WGTOW.

Whatever offends trumps whatever is deserved. In the natural course of social and domestic intercourse, you can’t for very long get what you deserve by offending the deliverer. Women know it instinctively, but they’ve fallen prey to different thinking.

Contrary to what feminists and many others believe, women can’t act like men and expect to be treated like women (except by men who have converted to feminist ideology and are willing to treat them as faux males). It doesn’t work; it’s also why women can’t get men to marry.

Men seek to marry virtuous women. Virtue is any female quality admired by a man. Men admire feminine but not masculine qualities, chastity but not promiscuity, and soft- but not hard-heartedness.

Men also see virtue in smiles and not frowns, hints and not nagging, validation and not blame, confidant and not critic, cheap date and not cheap sex, neatness and not sloppiness, cheeriness and not grumpy, clean and not trashy, appealing and not ugly, proud and not boastful, and pretty if not ignored in her habits. Without seeing virtues piled upon virtues, men just don’t marry or stay that way very long.

Women deserve what they get according to what they do. When women lead from their hearts, men follow, except as they lose interest. It happens when women lack respect for who men are and what they do. Then men fight back. One strategy today is for men to join up together to go their own way. To them, women are useful subjects to be exploited for sex but little else.

MGTOW grows in response to WGTOW and more of the latter begets more of the former. The growth of popularity depends on women who shape popular opinion.

Old school WIVES use to determine cultural values, standards, and expectations that shaped the way people act in society and, thus, popular opinion.

Modern celebrities, media, and political activists now shape it. Some singles marry up. As wives they learn that modern values don’t work all that well when trying to generate harmony in their homes, living with a husband, trying to keep their man, or raising kids to match a good mom’s expectations. Following new school custom, they blame husband and he either flees or changes such that she flees. It’s foreseeable but doesn’t seem preventable; WGTOW in a marriage is toxic. Admittedly an afterthought, but so is MGTOW.

WGTOW seems to be growing, so MGTOW will likely follow. Until, that is, women learn that men follow what women expect and not what they demand. Men prefer feminine charm and comfortable connections and reject offense and bitter separation. But if women don’t want to play the feminine game, men will find something else to do. As we all should have learned by now, women write, produce, act, direct, and award their own Oscars in the play of life with a mate.


Filed under courtship, dear daugher, Fickle female, How she loses, Uncategorized

33 responses to “2361. MGTOW: Men Going Their Own Way

  1. MT

    Excellent break down, Sir Guy.

    I know feminism has caused many problems, however I read an interesting article today over at Crisis magazine. It is called In Defense of Domesticity and references the boom of industrial revolution as one of the first and primary pitfalls to the nuclear family. Fathers were no longer a constant presence/ example in the home while pursuing work in the cities, therefore their influence were reduced. And in a course of tragic action, women’s role in the home suffered and therefore so did the children.

    I won’t be able to properly paraphrase the article but do read if you have the chance. I would like to hear your thoughts on the piece.

    And I hope I didn’t detract too much from the original premise of your post. I have been wondering for quite some time now when the destruction of traditional male and female roles began and this piece provided some interesting insight. http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/in-defense-of-domesticity

    Your Highness MT,
    Thanks for referring me to the article. I recommend it to all readers and post it as separate comment to unbury it from deep in comments section.

  2. MGTOW take themselves out of the gene pool and breed themselves out of existence. A win win for humanity.

    Women are not to blame for MGTOW. The problems stem for thousands of years of men treating women like property by using violence and creating laws, religions, and social expectations to control women by denying women the right to own property, denying the right to vote, denying women the economic benefits of women’s paid and unpaid labor, denying women the custody of the children we birth, denying reproductive freedom, denying women credit cards and bank accounts in the women’s own names, etc.

    Rectifying the above abuses has been in effect for less than 100 years. Men have not yet evolved to treating women as equal human beings.

    Your posts reflect this lack of evolution that is only in effect now.

    But, in the grand scheme of things, men and society will evolve. 100, 500, 1,000 years from now society will reconcile women’s equality as human beings and women’s role in reproducing the human race.

    Until then MGTOW (and you) are fighting a losing battle. Women will not go back to the status of chattel for men.

    Mary Alice

    Sent from Outlook Mobile

    • MT

      Your comment is a perfect example of cherry picking and revisionist history. I wouldn’t even know where to begin.

      And men haven’t evolved enough to treat women like equal human beings? It seems to me, men are evolving in exactly the way that should be expected in our current societal structure. MGTOW, for example.

    • anon...

      Im glad YOU didnt write that article
      It sounds 1970s ;along with fish and bikes.
      and you gave source😊
      Now we need to take the language back and drop MS.
      Every language shows single and married women

    • Meow Meow

      There is truth in this…I am all for a return to the feminine, but the feminine must be valued, not enslaved. It is a very precarious position for a woman to embrace femininity, very vulnerable, because of history and biology. (I imagine jumping along rocks in the stream.) We can’t just automatically go back to “the way things were,” and still ARE in many parts of the world—– we need to recognize there were serious issues women were responding/reacting to via feminism and take the lessons of the past seriously, both the good and the bad of it, for our lives do depend on it.

    • That Horse Is Dead

      This doesn’t even make sense.

    • Eric

      The Cultural Marxists teach the type of thinking that Mary Alice describes. To them, history is a linear, progressive class struggle. The reality is that human history is cyclical and when human beings deviate off the course of human nature, there’s a social correction because Nature will always take its course.

      Future generations are NOT going to be as Mary Alice described: they’re going to look back on our era as a Dark Age and will probably be a more traditionalist society that anybody thinks.

    • Patrick Riarchy

      EDITOR’S NOTE: Ordinarily I would not post this, but I know godgrace55 lurks, I think she should see it.

      Actually, your view of the future assumes that men will have anything to do with females. You assume that men can’t do without females.

      A Woman Needs a Man Like a Fish Needs a Bicycle.

      You have taught us well that A Man Needs a Female Like a Fish Needs a Lobotomy.

      After 50 years of female contempt and even though we gave you every opportunity, females have shown us what they think of men.

      Consequently, you are completely useless to men.

      In 2020 we will release Hubots to the market. Also in 2020 we will release ectogenesis technology so men can have babies without females. Just like females can have babies without men. So within a few months in 2020 females will become completely irrelevant to men.

      We know you females are perfect and see no need to change. We know you females blame us for your own choices and you exploit our sexuality. We are fed up. We don’t want you any more. We are not going to cop the idea that we should just cop anything a female dishes out and be grateful for it. The notion that we should cop crap from females for the way things were 150 years ago is just pathetic and demonstrates what females think of men.

      Hubots will replace females in most jobs they do. So females will work even less than they do now. So females will be even less likely to be able to reproduce. Whereas men have the money so if they have the inclination they can have a child with out interference from a female.

      Way back in 2011, Pew Research found that 29% of men wanted to get married as opposed to 38% of females. The 29% is falling and the 38% is rising. Why do you think the birth rate continues to fall? Why do you think the marriage rate continues to fall?

      At last, you will be able to live your entire life without the need to deal with horrid, violent, emotionless men who are not good enough for you.

      Sir Patrick Riarchy,
      Welcome aboard. It’s a great day when another good man joins us on this cruise to WhatWomenNeverHear.

      • Miss Gina

        Sir Patrick,

        You are rightfully angry. Feminism stinks. However, I just ask that you keep an open mind. Many women don’t agree with feminism. Because we are feminine, we tend not to be the loudmouth type, nor do we boldly express interest in a man we like. (I am married but speak on behalf of my single feminine sisters.) Look beyond the obvious…we are everywhere.

  3. From personal experience: MGTOW is not a death-sentence on that man’s future marriage. He is simply not prioritizing it until a woman worth marrying appears. A man can easily be a MGTOW as well as be on the table for marriage.

    I suppose in that sense, MGTOW just flips the script. He will not court, chase, propose or pamper. He will sit back and let what’s good come to him. Such men are winnable yet.

    • Meow Meow

      “Winnable?” But that puts him in a passive role, a prize to be won. A man who does not court, chase or propose is also not good to marry anyway. It puts him in the feminine role and i would warn any truly feminine woman to stay far away from such a man no matter how attractive or end up with a lackluster marriage.
      Now if you mean he “Sits back” UNTIL he sees the potential wife he desires and then goes after her, that is a different story. (Which she can encourage with batting eyelashes, gentle appreciation of efforts, showing interest etc. so to speak.) A man who is discriminating THEN springs into action is indeed acting in the masculine role! Am i understanding you better?

      • Yes, these men become active when they see the appropriate woman. But it’s worth considering also that sometimes she may need to give very solid signs she is interested. And this can be done in a feminine way: show concern for his health, feed him, always look your best around him. He will need the woman to prove her quality as a wife before he thinks it’s worth the effort of pursuit. After all, he has no need for a modern, average wife, so she must be an excellent wife to summon him into action.

        And women DO win men. What else is beauty, charm, affection and non-child-nurturing for? We can’t expect to just sit back and be passive. It’s a common misconception that someone must always be the active and the other necessarily the passive. A man can be a still mountain until the river carves her groove into him. The river may play and flow and run, but ultimately the mountain sets her course. Active and passive is not a dichotomy.

        • Meow Meow

          That is why I put “She can encourage him with appreciation of efforts, showing interest etc.” These are simple ways to reciprocate or show interest without forcing the issue.

          Unfortunately though, even for a man to be inspired to chase, he needs to have some dynamic and observant qualities, which are being squashed in many men I’ve come across lately, whether by the educational system, women being over-giving in sex, or the idea mom can do it all (single parent households.) These things do have repercussions.

          • Meow Meow

            And, to be clear, I am not against MGTOW or WGTOW either for that matter. There are some men AND WOMEN who are just not cut out for marriage, and thats OK. There are some who are too fearful of a relationship, being burned, or who have been burned. Some men just don’t desire female company and like bears prefer solitude. Not everyone HAS to get married. Some people contribute to society just fine being single. If there is indiscriminate disappointment or anger towards the opposite sex, however, that tends to be toxic, as we all have to make our way in the world and the other gender isn’t going anywhere!

            Your Highness Meow Meow,
            Women never hear this. The values, standards, and expectations of single women who seek to remain single are directly at odds with those of wives and wife-hopefuls. When womanhood is divided over what’s right or best for women, they have much less influence getting men to help fulfill female hopes and dreams.

            • Milena

              Sir Guy, do you mean single women who sleep around or single women who earn their own living and are not dependent on men? What about a woman who’s not interested in dating or sleeping with men and only focuses on her ambitions and passions in life?

              Your Highness Milena,

              You ask about my statement that, “When womanhood is divided over what’s right or best for women, they have much less influence getting men to help fulfill female hopes and dreams.”


              • All single women. The more unified is womanhood around strictly female values, standards, and expectations, then the greater influence each has with their own man.
              • No disrespect intended for single gal choices or situations. Everyone has free will, but whatever we do in some way impacts others. Bachelorettes don’t help wives, although I’m reasonably sure single women don’t think that much about it. I do only because society shrinks away from its historical female-friendliness, which has traditionally helped civilize and tame men to help fulfill girlhood hopes and dreams.

              As you suggest, not all women seek a man and future with him. That is historical and common among some women. As a group, however, they have little influence taming the male beast as they have no need for help to fulfill their girlhood hopes and dreams. But they do reduce the number of wives who have the greatest influence civilizing and taming men toward a more female-friendly society.


    • anon...

      If MGTOW guys stay CELEBATE….its a good thing

  4. anon...

    A birthday surprise😊

  5. Beloved

    You wrote, “WGTOW in a marriage is toxic” and also “women learn that men follow what women expect and not what they demand.” But I just saw something on the whole temperance issues of the late 1800’s where men were going and spending their entire paycheck on booze, getting drunk, beating and maybe raping their wives (who obviously had nowhere to go to be safe) and it was women’s DEMANDS that had to make this stop. (I’m sure in your thinking there simply must have been a difficult woman at home to drive him to drink! But even so, wouldn’t personal responsibility come into play somewhere? Can’t help but think of the term “man up” in this instance.) I’m sure it has been this type of irresponsible behavior on the part of men that brought about feminism in the first place. And now the MGTOW’s are just incensed that any other human being would want to be treated like anything other than a slave. (And I do NOT agree with the way women are these days, but it’s also what they’re being taught, so how would they even know any different?) This whole idea of getting Asian women who will be more submissive while he is a loser who does nothing to help the marriage just kills me. Mostly because I have witnessed these women come to the U.S. and become like every other woman here. These women are just using these men to become citizens and to have a better life. They often dump these men or cheat on them when they can’t stand them any longer. Sorry, but I think it’s high time men stop blaming women for everything (and vice versa) and everyone accept personal responsibility for their own actions.

    Your Highness Beloved,

    The condition in the 1800s that you cite provides me an opportunity to explain a little more of what women never hear. Look for an article on it.

    Looking at MGTOW and WGTOW, I find a common factor, BLAME. It’s easy to blame; it relieves one of responsibility for whatever is wrong and for doing anything about it. By blaming all men, individual women evade considering how to make things work better at the individual level. Ditto for men. Blame shuts down the brain.

    • Eric

      Miss Beloved:
      If I’m feeling up to it, I’ll comment more on this when Sir Guy’s post comes out—but suffice for now to say that the 19th Century treatment of women was something of an anomaly. Part of it was Reactionary to some of the sexual debauchery that took place during the French Revolution and in some of the Marxist communes that were sprouting up in Europe and America at the time. The early 20th Century much of that changed, not because of Feminism but because the Churches recognized the problem and were reforming men to be better husbands.

      Sir Eric,
      My response to Beloved that you mention is 2362.

    • Eric

      “The whole idea that getting Asian women who will be more submissive while he is a loser and does nothing to help the marriage just kills me. Mostly because I’ve witnessed these women come to the US and become like every other woman here.”

      I think a man’s chances are better of finding a good woman are better if he looks outside the US, but what these Manospherians overlook is that the man still has to look for quality and compete with other men. Otherwise, the result is going to be exactly as you described. I’ve said in the Manosphere before that men should look for foreign women in developed countries; but the idea is always ridiculed.

      • Sandy

        I agree on part what you mention Eric. The chances are better if men look for foreign women. But what I have observed and have discussed with my male friend who lives abroad/Asian country…. Is that he is noticing Asian women are becoming more feminists each day. I think USA plays a role in influencing Asian countries and the trends/celebrity/American English/technology (which USA is so behind in tech world, but if you look at the Asian people most of them are using an IPhone instead of their own product LG, Samsung which is WAY!! more advanced in so many ways) But no they are using iPhone because it’s American/ it’s cool.
        Also I have noticed is if men want to have children…Asian women is not the way to go. Asia such as Japan and Korea have the lowest birth rates in the world and its only going to get worse and so it marriage based on statistics. I think this is due to the women focusing more on their career/job than marriage (unless they are pressured by family members when they turn 30 or in their 30s).

        Your Highness Sandy,
        Welcome aboard. It’s a great day when another pretty woman joins us on this cruise to WhatWomenNeverHear.

  6. Beloved

    I forgot to add that MGTOW in a marriage isn’t a good thing either. Ruling the home with an iron fist while the submissive little woman just sucks it up because, oh well, this is her lot in life. That’s what got us into all this feminism nonsense in the first place! Bottom line; Men, you are supposed to love your wives like you’ve never loved anyone and even more than your own life. Women, you are supposed to give him the respect he deserves and let him be the leader. But, in this fallen world it’s hard to find a man who is respectable and a woman who doesn’t fear his incompetence or laziness or whatever and wants to control everything. Add in selfishness on both parts and alas, that’s why we’re all here. But, I like to dream.

    Your Highness Beloved,
    You’re right again. MGTOW is toxic to a marriage. I was remiss and fixed it.

  7. Some Other Guy

    I don’t see MGTOW as a movement catching on in a big way as did the women’s movement did. 1st off, men going their own way, mostly just go their own way and do not join some movement to validate the act. Men typically are not the types to join up into social movements. 2nd, the women’s movement had some serious money behind it. I doubt that MGTOW would ever be able to inspire the kind of budget money that a group like NOW would.

    I think what you see is men informally just opting out of all the traditional manly roles. Just read the comments above mine for an understanding of why a man might want to opt out of the whole traditional marriage and fatherhood gig. What’s in it for him? What man in his right mind would want to marry into that kind of anger?

    Men used to be attracted to strong male head of household role. That role is under attack in our society. Men are told over and over that women are stronger and better than men. Men are shown in society on TV and pop culture as the big dumb oaf. Or the drunken lout who is just out to booze it up and come home and rape his wife. So increasingly men are coming to understand that women do not need a man. The rational thing for men to do is to drop out of that scene.

    Further, most men understand that when they get married and have kids, all it takes for his whole life to be destroyed and his kids taken away from him is for his wife to make an allegation of physical abuse. Whether the allegation is true or not, the police will come and put him in jail. Who’s going to believe the man is innocent? The wife will file divorce papers. She will get to keep the kids. He will have to pay alimony and child support. Women wield enormous power over men.

    Or take the college scene. A young man and woman have a drink or two. Both are now under the influence. They have consensual sex. The next day the woman changes her mind and declares that it was not consensual. Both parties were equally under the influence. Guess who’s going to end up in trouble? It won’t be the woman. If he is not convicted of a crime, he will likely be thrown out of the college and have to forfeit all the tuition he has paid in.

    In spite of all of the above negatives, the right woman can make a man overlook all of that and end up dating and marrying. But these days it takes a special woman to overcome all the baggage.

    Sir Some Other Guy,
    An excellent exposition. Thanks.

    • That Horse Is Dead

      Sir Some Other Guy,

      I think we have discussed this issue before multiple times on the blog. If a man goes his own way, but still has regular booty, it’s going to take a movement of chaste single women to pull him out of the fog. He’s not chasing or pursuing the chaste single women because he’s used to being chased — it’s too easy for him. This leaves women who want to be a good wife left to deal with passive men and around we go. MGTOW keep passing along their emails and phone numbers into middle age because they can and because it’s working for them. By the way, Sir Guy, how do you spot MGTOW versus Manosphere versus Vague & Unavailable? It would seem they eventually start to look the same.

      Your Highness That Horse Is Dead,
      Good observation and analysis. I see MGTOW, Manosphere, and V&U as chapters of the same fraternity.

    • gonemaverick

      SomeOtherGuy and Sir Guy,

      “What man in his right mind would want to marry into that kind of anger?” this statement. right here sums up this debate for me.

  8. A.GuyMaligned


    I’ve been slow in responding. I don’t want you to miss MT’s research. She refers us to http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/in-defense-of-domesticity.
    It compares the philosophies of whether happiness is found inside or outside the home. It’s worthy of your attention. However, for me, I found the following quote and have already ordered the other author’s book in which it’s found.
    I quote from Wendell Berry who essays this way.

    “Why would any woman who would refuse, properly, to take the marital vow of obedience (on the ground, presumably, that subservience to a mere human being is beneath human dignity) then regard as “liberating” a job that puts her under the authority of a boss (man or woman) whose authority specifically requires and expects obedience? …How, I am asking, can women improve themselves by submitting to the same specialization, degradation, trivialization, and tyrannization of work that men have submitted to? …How have men improved themselves by submitting to it?”

    Merry Christmas to everyone!


    • ari

      Merry Christmas Sir Guy and everyone!

    • My Husband's Wife

      Wow! What a quote from Wendell Berry. Wishing all a Merry Christmas— waking up today and seeing these recent posts/dialog in the comments is definitely my gift for today (as it is every day I ready it). Sir Guy, and all the readers at WWNH: thank you for sharing your questions, wisdom, and insights over the past years. You’ve been an inspiration and it’s always a joy to come here and learn.

      • Meow Meow

        Wendell Berry is amazing reading, especially for his take on the relationship of why Man needs Nature. He is considered (among other things) an environmentalist writer who walks in the footsteps of Thoreau, although his take on this important relationship comes from a more agrarian (but non-exploitative) perspective. Beautiful, poetic writing. I come from a rural background as well and appreciate his nuances and the care with which he writes about the need of Man and Earth for one another.

  9. Cocoa

    Merry Christmas sir Guy 🎄

  10. Eric

    “As women go, so goes society” Men will always live up (or down) to female societal expectations. MGTOW is conformity to women’s attitude that men are unnecessary and expendable. Game is conformity to women’s sexual looseness and vulgarity. Male Feminism is conformity to women’s feminist ideology. LGBT among men is another variation of MGTOW. The MHRM is another variation of male feminism and so on.

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