04/08/2012 · 6:41 am
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Some women help pay on dates with men. It benefits the man financially but weakens his emotional ties to her. If she’ll pay, she’ll play—his game, that is. Helping to pay makes her worthy of him, which he translates as not having to make himself worthy of her. Using only his money adds value to her as person more than sex object. Spending on her invests himself in her and her interests, as long as he doesn’t take it as cover charge for sex. The last point uplifts virtual virginity as a woman’s best strategy and hardtoget and never-does-she-pay as her best tactics.
- The more a man gives to and for a woman when he has very little to give, the more devoted he is or becomes to her. Making sacrifices for her programs his heart first with respect followed by love.
- Unmarried women encourage or initiate first-time sexual relations with a man. It squelches the man’s conquering spirit with three ill effects. First, it waters down his glory of conquest. Second, he doesn’t have to invest himself to find common interests. Third, it makes her less valuable to him—except as booty, that is.
- Women automatically assume themselves qualified for marriage. They bribe one or more men with sex, money, or both to prove themselves worthy. They expect one man will hang around for a while, but they learn that female hopes and dreams mean little once they yield sex.
- She dresses beautifully to capture her man and follows up with sloppy attire and careless grooming that turns his head toward other females. Each look at her spells mistake that he has to live with—or does he?
- Men crave the substance of everything, but symbols often satisfy. So, wife has great latitude to make everything fit together, to harmonize home life.
What Women Never Hear 
‘Men crave the substance of everything’ Interesting – given that men are more visual it would appear that the symbols first have to be there before they will explore the substance. Therefore that statement seems almost contradictory or at the least intriguingly intricately complex. Perhaps I think too much on these intermittent pop ins – but life does not really allow me to pop in as regularly as previously
Candice aka Curious Candy
Your Highness Curious Candy,
The context is that symbols can substitute for the substance. For example, wife doesn’t act sickly, so husband presumes she’s well. Men aren’t energized over symbols that all’s well. They are interested in the substance when they see problems, something that needs doing.
Guy
Am I reading this right… so the wife *should* act sickly if she feels sick?! When ill, I have always acted as well as I can possibly muster, although if my husband asks I will honestly tell him I feel quite sick. You recommend letting the sick (or tired, or fill-in-the-blank with other unsavory condition) show through more, though so that the man sort-of realizes by our actions (as opposed to just our words) that we feel a certain way? I have relied on words alone in the past and have always been proud of my own ability to *act* consistently no matter how I am *feeling*…
Your Highness Anne,
I’m proud and I’m sure your husband is too that you function as best you can when you’re not feeling all that chipper.
But you took my comment out of context. I commented on the nature of men. They presume she’s in great shape unless she says otherwise. IOW, things ain’t broke unless symbols reveal it. Women are quite different. They routinely inquire “You feeling okay?” when no signs are present that he’s not.
Guy
I’ve always believed women shouldn’t pay for first date..maybe later she could if they want to go to something ‘pricier’ together. Many women seem to be making either the same amount of money or even more these days. HAPPY EASTER!!
Hi Guy, it’s been a while 🙂
I was wondering if you had any advice for the young woman who has a hard time accepting gifts, and having men pay for dates. I often feel guilty when people other than my mom buy me things, and once blew up at an exboyfriend for getting me a birthday present after I explicitly told him I didn’t want anything (I was so mad that he didn’t listen to me grr).
I once read a book, “The Five Languages of Love” and took the test in the back of the book. It said that my preferred method of receiving love is through spending time and my least prefferred was getting gifts (I knew that already, but it seems nice to be validated from a legitimate source). Is there anyway I can modify the Game from spending money (because it makes me feel really, really uncomfortable. You have no idea) to spending time?
Thanks!
-Manny
Your Highness Manny,
I need more time. Should respond by sometime tomorrow.
Guy
Your Highness Manny,
It’s almost universal that men don’t appreciate unearned gifts. Very rare, but a few females dislike undeserved gifts. They dislike themselves in some particular way, and receiving gifts reminds them of what they don’t want to think about.
WADWMUFGAO aka we all do whatever makes us feel good about ourselves. You’ve learned to live with yourself except for the intrusion of gifts. Reacting negatively to gifts and he-pays dating assuages your guilt and makes you feel better than does any undeserved gift or freebie.
As to modifying the Game, forget it. Focus on modifying yourself. Reinforcing your femininity should work best. I suggest you study these blog articles in the order listed and figure out how you can make yourself more feminine to yourself:
• Dark Side of Feminism (Note: I define Feminism and Femininity as polar opposites. So, feminist leanings fade away as feminine thoughts dominate a lady’s behavior.)
• Boob Language (Note: How you dress determines how you think more than the reverse.)
• Those that have feminine or femininity in the title. (Search CONTENTS page at blog top.)
• Those that have feminine or femininity in the body. (Use search block at blog top.)
Repetition reinforces so don’t get discouraged if you happen upon the same thought more than once.
It’s a big assignment, but I’m sure it will make you much more comfortable receiving gifts and letting men pay for dates.
Guy
Ack! Suddenly a week goes by, I’m so sorry Guy! I hope it doesn’t look like I asked you to answer my question and then disappeared into the abyss! It’s the last few weeks of school, and I’ve had some really big projects due next week that I’ve literally put nearly 50 hours of work into, just these past seven days. I’ve barely been on Facebook, I’ve been so busy.
I appreciate your response to my question. I wonder if it’s true that there’s something about myself I don’t like, because I seem to like myself enough. I’ve had some rough patches here and there, but I am generally pleased with my self as a whole.
I wonder if it’s just that I’m as introverted as introverted can get. I might like myself, but once a spotlight shines on me, I run for the high hills. There’s a book “Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking” by Susan Cain that comes to mind. I haven’t read it–yet–but a line of its synopsis “…who innovate and create but dislike self-promotion” makes me wonder about drawing attention to ones self and how that plays in the introverted mind (which is radically different from an extroverted mind, down to how dopamine is processed.)
I’ll think about your comments on femininity as I read the book and try to pry out what exactly causes my disdain for material gifts. I wonder if it has anything to do with birthdays being generally ignored in my family…
I’m not trying to argue or discount your points. Just thinking aloud. Hope that doesn’t come across as too confrontational. That’s not my intention at all…
Hope this finds you well.
Your Highness Manny,
It’s great that you’re focusing on school and don’t worry about arguing or discounting my points. I just suggest things for you to consider. You have to figure out what works for you and it takes time.
I’m much like your introverted self and you struck a chord. My family also ignored birthdays and recognition of personal achievements, school or otherwise. In the end, we are all pretty much the product of our upbringing. I’ve found this works best to alleviate my discomfort. I say to myself several times when some one gifts or initiates special recognition, “I must look them straight in the eye, say thank you, and smile big, bigger, biggest.” By focusing on that ‘duty’ to occupy my mind, gifts and recognition now make me far less comfortable. But then I’m 80 years old, so it takes a lot of practice.
Guy
Your advice on paying for dates may have been relevant 30 or even 20 years ago, but I question the relevance within today’s cut-throat dating world.
I have no problem with a woman not paying on the first or second date, but I think she should pay at some point. I feel as though men are often taken advantage of by women when it comes to dating, as a lot of women totally play the field and date multiple guys at once – they get away with this by not offering to pay on their dates. I make good money myself, but I don’t want to be taken advantage of.
A lot of women think that all they need to do on a date is simply show up, but I like it if a woman makes it clear by her actions that she really likes me. Offering to pay is simply one way that she can make it clear that she isn’t simply out to take advantage of me financially.
Kurt, I wonder what gives you the feeling that your dates are “just showing up”? I ask because I don’t think I ever “just” showed up on a single date in my life. At least not in my own perspective (I don’t know what the dates thought, of course)! Often I went out and bought a whole new dress, depending on the situation (which probably cost as much as the date, when I think about it…) Obviously, I didn’t do this every time, but for something special, yes. And I remember it taking around an hour to get ready when you include hair, make up, etc. I am sure that time-frame is about average for most women. So, I wonder what indicates a sort-of lack of appreciation that makes you wish they would start helping to pay already?
I have heard this argument before, but don’t buy it. How many women really go out and purchase a new dress just for a date? It is one thing if you are referring to a date where a woman is asked to attend a wedding, but if I am meeting a woman for drinks or even dinner, I doubt that the woman is wearing a new dress just for that.
Sir Kurt,
When you doubt it, you admit that you’re not worth her doing it. If she’s truly interested in you for more than a date, she wants a new dress, hairdo, shoes, and the trimmings that make her feel good about herself just trying to please you. She’ll spend herself silly for the right guy.
Your attitude that she should help pay for the date waters down your worth for her preps. The greater you’re willing to pick up all the tabs, the more likely you’ll date well-garbed women willing to give you credit for having promise as a great guy.
Of course, some women may abuse your hospitality. But that happens in many other ways than just dating. Or, how about the guy that talks her into yielding and never calls her? The marketplace is full of the quid pro quo. The more you condemn the arrangements, the more your attitude sours against individual women. Don’t for a moment think they don’t detect it as a soured rather than the normal male hardheartedness.
Guy
When I come across thoughts like this I remember these are conclusions he has drawn from his experiences.
I’m not sure what Sir Guy may write in response. Maybe there is a way to new experiences from which men could develop new conclusions for themselves if they choose to.
Maybe he’ll read Kathy’s recent (awesome) comment about how she’s striving to be a good wife in various ways. Maybe he’ll read other comments from ladies studying diligently to figure things out to build a good life with a man. Maybe he’ll read a lovely lady’s dynamic online profile. 🙂
I echo Anne’s remarks below — there are many ways of “paying” for a date, many ways of showing that someone likes another person; just because a woman doesn’t pay, doesn’t mean she doesn’t like you, or doesn’t have other costs (in time or money) to get ready for the date. If you think the woman/women you’re dating is/are taking advantage of you, just because they don’t pay for dates, first you may be wrong (and why shouldn’t a woman date many guys at once? she’s dating you, not married to you from the first date — would you insist on exclusivity for yourself *and* for all your dates from the first time you ask them out?); but secondly, if you are right that a woman is taking advantage of you, you can find other ways to weed them out, including cheaper dates (fix a picnic, fly kites, etc.).
I suspect you’ll get little sympathy from Sir Guy for your plight about wanting women to demonstrate that they like you (especially by them paying for dates), since his typical advice to unmarried women is to keep men guessing so that men don’t get too comfortable. 🙂
Yes, I hope that no sympathy is given. I personally see this as a passing vent or trolling. “Kurt” will be gone in a few days with nothing more to offer than when he came.
Lady Kaikou
I am not a troll and I really do think that the advice is suspect. Seriously, if you think that men enjoy paying for everything on dates, you are simply wrong. In fact, money is a big issue for most men when it comes to dating and I know many men who stopped dating women primarily because the women came across as greedy and expected them to pay for everything.
Sir Kurt,
Adolescence guides the men you describe. They prioritize protecting their money as more important than paying the price to find a woman good enough to care for them throughout life. They’re not mature enough to grasp much less invest themselves in the concept that bigger risks earn greater rewards.
As adolescence guides them in forthcoming years, they draw back from further from risk. That translates to lessened ability to help a woman fulfill her hopes and dreams, aka lousy husbanding and poor fathering.
You’ll scream foul at this truism. Unwillingness to pay dearly to find the woman of your dreams transmutes over the years to being a poor husband. If you don’t pay dearly to find and keep her, she loses value to you and your interest wanes for good husbanding. And fathering I might add.
Guy
I am eager to hear Mr Guy’s response to Kurt on this issue, because his attitude is a very commonplace one amongst single men these days. How do single ladies address it? Mr Guy, is Kurt’s attitude a “red flag” or is there some way we can use charm and female wisdom to deal with effectively?
In the past I have usually reciprocated with paying for dates, sometimes even 50/50, but after reading Mr Guy’s blog I am rethinking this practise.
Your Highness Laura,
Whether a red flag or not, treat it as a blazing one.
How do single ladies address it? As offended ladies! They smile, shake their head in disbelief, say “I’m worth more to me than to you,” and stroll away.
Such guys need to face shock and awe and smiling ladies can deliver it without malice.
Guy
Laura, my husband (who was raised very much “in the culture of today”) expected me to pay on a date once. What I did was to totally ignore the tab. It was very awkward, I won’t lie. A lot of time passed. You know, the kind of time when it’s *time* to pick up the tab and look at it and get out the credit card… but I did not move a muscle in that direction and did not even glance at the tab, but just kept chatting to him. I repeat: awkward! The waitress finally asked who was paying. I pretended to be deaf and just looked at her with absolutely no expression on my face and waited for *him* to talk and (by consequence) offer to pay. Rude some would say? Well, he asked me out again, so what can I say? Oh, and he always paid after that. 😉 I don’t know if that would work for all situations, but I thought it was a non-confrontational way to address the issue loud and clear.
Princess Anne,
You have nerves of steel and the poise of Miss America. I could never pull that off (at least I don’t think I could), but I sure do wish I could. 🙂
Thank you, Laura; but truth be told, I didn’t see it as nervy. Somehome it felt… generous. I’d never gone out with a man who had expected me to pay my way before. I knew it would be a deal-breaker if this man insisted that I pay. So I felt I was being gracious by, basically, giving him one last-ditch chance to pick up that bill. I brought the example up because Guy mentioned strolling away… but I know that sometimes one hopes one *won’t need* to stroll away. 😉 So I share my experience as a venue for offering a 2nd chance, especially since it worked (though I have only tried it once…)
Princess Anne,
Oh, I used the wrong term – by “nerves of steel” I didn’t mean “nervy” at all – I meant “poise to the nth degree.” Maybe “Steel Magnolia” would be a better term. I do understand exactly what you are saying here – I just think it takes a very confident and poised lady to carry off this very specific kind of grace and generosity. And of course you were doing him a favor 🙂
Kurt, as a man I feel the same way you do. Frankly I think guy’s response here ranges into shaming you for your (valid) feelings.
My suggestion is do not invite women to an expensive event until you judge her character worthy enough to pay for her evening. Would you walk up to a strange woman you know nothing about and invite her to a $300 dinner? No, you would spend time talking to her and you would be sure she was worth your attention. Greater risks do not automatically equal greater rewards. Due dilligence is key.
Everytime I’ve asked a girl to dinner I’ve been sure that I’ll consider it money well spent and I’ve never felt that I’ve been taken advantage of in this way even when it doesn’t lead to anything more.
If a woman won’t give you the chance to even talk to her and gauge her character without giving her an expensive gift (dinner), then she raises her own red flags.
Sir Bastion,
Well done. You describe an honorable strategy well and clearly. You sense, judge, invite, and take the risk. Regardless of outcome of the date, you’ve little room to complain, because you had control throughout the process. It’s gentlemanliness personified.
You also say that I range into shaming Kurt for his (valid) feelings. Perhaps you’re right. I don’t equate feelings with validity because no distinction exists relative to other people. I equate the worth of feelings with the actions they produce and to which others feel pressured to react.
Incidentally, welcome aboard. It’s a great day when good men join us on this cruise to WhatWomenNeverHear.
Guy
“his typical advice to unmarried women is to keep men guessing so that men don’t get too comfortable”
An underlying assumption of this advice seems to be that a woman is always going to be able to find another suitable man for marriage, so she shouldn’t get too attached. However, how often do women come across men whom they really like and with whom they really do have a strong connection? It seems like if a keeps a man guessing too much, he’ll assume she isn’t that interested and move on to another woman who shows conspicuous interest.
Sir Kurt,
Your argument falls apart with this phrase, “if she keeps a man guessing too much….” Women are relationship experts. They intuitively know when they approach something as perhaps too much and they back off. They choose other actions to remove any threat. Of course, not all women are ideally polished at doing it, but they learn very fast.
Unless desperate or truly not all that interested in a man, a woman doesn’t lead a man of interest to assume that she’s uninterested. She wants to retain control if separation is to occur.
Guy
Rather, I think the underlying assumption is not to trust men too much, but to make them prove themselves, and not to let yourself get too attached to a man who may be ultimately not Mr. Right, nor even Mr. Good Enough. He’s not saying don’t ever demonstrate that you like a man, but instead be reserved and don’t demonstrate TOO MUCH interest (which is common to women). Like Goldilocks — not too much, not too little, but “just right”.
I think you said that really well, Kathy!
To offer a different perspective, oftentimes not letting the man pay is a sure sign that the woman is not the least bit interested.
Most of us hate owing anybody anything & if we know that we’re not interested & that it’s not going to go anywhere we’ll likely insist on paying.
Very true. It would certainly “even the playing field” and make it easier for a woman to make a break from the date/relationship, to pay for the date. It can also be a protection mechanism on the woman’s part, to make sure the man doesn’t presume too much [i.e., that his paying for the date qualifies him for sex at the end of it]. Either way, it’s not a sign of a healthy relationship.
I’m thankful for these comments. I think creating a healthy financial environment right from the very first encounter/date can help set the tone for a financially healthy future marriage.
Princess Jessica,
This is very insightful.
Your Highness jessicakong,
I’m glad you offered the different perspective. I think men may conclude a woman is not the least bit interested if she doesn’t let him pay, which actually may not be how the woman feels. She may just be uncomfortable with the amount, implied obligation, or something else that goes with it, but still interested in him.
With all the twists and turns this can take, maybe a good approach is for women to determine their own unique financial sensibilities that reinforce their self-respect, and then teach men to honor them if they wish to pursue her.
Kurt,
You wrote ‘It seems like if a keeps a man guessing too much, he’ll assume she isn’t that interested and move on to another woman who shows conspicuous interest.’
In what may I ask. A wham bam thank you m’a’m or interest in your great potential as husband and father?
How do I deal with a husband that insists I go to work to help him out financially? He makes good money but we have many debts from cars and vacations that he feels we(he) “deserve”. The more he spends, the more I try to pinch pennies at home but he hates that. I just don’t know what to do. We have been married 18 years.
Every time he raises his voice at me for not working, I feel like he doesn’t value anything I do here at home: homeschooling, houskeeping, paying the bills, having dinner ready when he comes in the door, being his assistant with a volunteer position that he signed up for and now I am slowly being forced by him to take over.
Trying to be more cheerful and pretty has helped his behavior toward me. He hasn’t raised his voice in months but what do I do when he spends $50 on taking us out to dinner and we are broke with still a week left before payday?
He is extremely kind and generous but if I even hint that maybe we don’t need to go out to the movies he will either: sulk because we can’t ever do anything (and it is my fault because I don’t work), insist that we will be alright and take us anyway (and it is my fault because I don’t trust him), be defiant and not only insist on taking us but pay for the kid’s friends too (and it is my fault that I am stingy), or get angry at me for being ungrateful. I want to get out of debt so he can have the freedom to pursue whatever career he wants and so we won’t be a burden to our children. He insists that we can only do it with an increase in income, I want to cut down expenses. I am afraid that if I got a job, our expenses would just increase because now we can “afford” it.
Oh Lord, it just feels like he would rather have nice vacations than have me at home and it hurts a lot. I don’t know what to do.
Your Highness Ruth,
Welcome aboard. It’s a great day when another pretty woman joins us on this cruise to WhatWomenNeverHear.
You have it tough. Many readers can help and I invite them. Fitting my perspective into my workload will take some time, so I’ll respond in a day or two.
Guy
P.S. My response turned into daily article 1592 to be published Thursday morning.
G.
I am interested in how the idea of you working has come about. Have you ever worked in the 18 years? Was there a pre-martial discussion on whether you will work? Has your husband suddenly been like this or gotten worse?
Lady Kaikou
Lady Kaikou,
I have only worked a couple of times at part-time seasonal jobs but it was difficult with homeschooling elementary/middle school aged children. Now
our children are high school age. We still homeschool but our eldest is your typical eldest son- self-motivated, independent, responsible. Our younger child is more social and needs more guidance and that is why I would not want to go to work until she goes off to college/work.
My husband and I never really discussed my working before we got married. Maybe he assumed it because I was working full time when I was single. As soon as our first was born I just wanted to stay home with him. I didn’t want a career, I wanted the family I never had growing up.
I guess my husband has been patient enough. I will probably not go back to work until after we graduate our youngest but I will give up my dreams of continuing to stay home and turning my attention to the house. Instead I will follow him into the workplace.
In some ways this sounds like my husbad. We’ve been married 9 years, have 2 children whom I home-school, and although he is mostly and usually supportive of my staying home, sometimes he talks about my working. Honestly, most of the time it is precipiated by my having slacked off on housekeeping and such — he thinks (somewhat rightly) that I am spending too much time at my computer rather than cooking, cleaning, and teaching, so it seems like an easy solution to him, that if I’m not going to be holding up my end of the bargain (in his eyes), then I should at least go make some money somewhere.
Sometimes, though, he just seems to get a little jealous of what others have that we don’t, and it seems so easy that the solution would be for me to work so that we would have more income. However, like you, I don’t think that would *really* be a solution, but would instead be an invitation for certain people to spend more. At the root, then, it seems that his problem is dissatisifaction with life, and that is what needs to change, rather than your income level. Since this isn’t the blog to bash men, but instead to help women in their relationships, I will turn the question to you, to answer rhetorically: what can you do to help his level of satisfaction increase?
Also, I have noticed in my marriage, that if I am too tight-fisted, too frugal, too much of a tightwad, that it triggers my husband to spend more, but that when I lighten up, he tightens up. Is this a power struggle in your relationship? It sounds like it might be. Oh, I understand your point of view! [It is indeed my own!] I understand your desire to be frugal, to be financially secure, to pay bills and keep them paid, rather than to incur more debt, etc., etc. But in my own relationship, I’ve discovered that if I try to minimize the cost of the expenses that I can control (groceries, for example), that it will backfire because my husband will insist on going out to eat instead of being satisfied with the simple but wholesome (and cheap) fare that I have provided. So much for saving $5 by eating rice and beans instead of hamburger meat — now we’re spending $20-40 on one meal for the whole family at a restaurant!
I’m trying to put into practice the principles Sir Guy has been teaching in this blog, but it is a long, slow road, and I get discouraged. But I will keep hoping. So, I need to take my own advice, but the first thing to do is get on the same page. Maybe talk about hopes and dreams, the future and what you want from the future, and how you will achieve it. Get input from him, rather than just you talking and/or insisting on a certain future, or that there is only one way to reach that goal. Before you start the conversation, have a serious time of meditation and thinking, in which you look at your accomplishments (what you have mentioned in your comment — taking care of the house, having food ready for him when he comes home, etc.), so you can be ready to present to him how much of a benefit he really gains by having you at home. Maybe you can present to him your monthly ideal budget of how easily all your family’s necessary expenses (and then some) fit so easily in his income, and that while you admire him for his generous and giving nature (mention how he paid for the other kids’ meals at the restaurant last time), that when he goes over-budget or insists on expensive vacations, and then wishes that you worked so your family could afford it, that he’s really saying that he doesn’t consider your work at home and your volunteering as his assistant to be worth as much as flashy vacations.
It seems to me that he gets a thrill from appearing well-off and/or generous (by being able to pay for others’ restaurant meals and vacations) — as Sir Guy says, “We all do what makes us feel good about ourselves” — so can you make him feel good about living within a budget? This isn’t you making up the budget and then he knuckles under and does it; rather, you invite his input so that it is a joint effort (which means you will have to give up some of your ideal stuff too). Can you admire him whenever he shows a smidgen of frugality? — not necessarily for the act of frugality itself, but for being the sort of man that puts his family’s financial well-being first.
Lady Kathy,
Thank you. Your first three paragraphs were so spot on it was scary. I
remembered that my trying to be even more frugal doesn’t work. (I just
never thought of it as a power as a power struggle because I do it quietly with the grocery budget. But the man is smart and can tell.) And you are absolutely correct in that he gets a thrill from appearing well off. All the teenage kids think he is the “cool” dad and we have the hangout house for all our kid’s friends.
He is actually a wonderul man that would do whatever he morally could to provide for us, he is just so optimistic that he can always make the money to cover payments and I’m more cautious/nervous about taking on debts. Plus, I keep the checkbook and can see that balance getting lower and lower before the next paycheck. Please don’t think that I am bashing my husband’s character, I know I have a great guy.
I am starting to see how I am a part of the problem I need to work harder at accomplishing things here at home instead of getting discouraged and letting up on things. Last, of all, thank you for your suggestion that I admire him not just for his frugality but, more importantly, for ” being the sort of man that puts his family’s financial well-being first.” That gives me hope. I can do that.
See, I didn’t consider it a power struggle either, when I was trying to cut back on finances — I was just frustrated (extremely so), that it seemed like every time I would make a little headway in saving a few dollars, my husband would “blow it” and spend tens of dollars. It was a silent, or perhaps “passive-aggressive” power struggle. It felt deliberate on his part, but I don’t really think it was; I think it was more his sense that things weren’t quite right in the food department (too many good, wholesome, but not exactly delicious meals in a row?), and he felt like he needed to counter-balance it — not deliberately, not with much if any thought, but more like we might sense a hot stove burner and automatically pull our hand back — he “felt” underfed so automatically compensated with “over-feeding” (not in quantity but in price). But I think it was a power struggle just the same, even if neither of us thought of it as such nor recognized it as such.
And it didn’t feel wrong to me, either — I felt like I was doing all sorts of good, frugal wifely things, in keeping our home running smoothly, putting meals on the table, and maximizing *his* income. But he didn’t have the same view of things, I guess. To him, my pinching pennies seemed more of an insult to him, that I *had* to scrape and pinch because he didn’t earn enough, rather than my view of things, which is that I choose to do these things to show how well we can live on his income, and how we can even save money on one income, if we pay attention to little things.
Writing this out has been helpful to me, because it makes me view things in a different way, and makes me ponder things that I otherwise would have missed. Now, I’m asking myself, can I (and if I can, *how* can I) get his view of things to more match my view of things? I never thought before that he perhaps was insulted at my frugality (though I felt his frustration at the time, and wondered what was the cause of it); now that I’m pretty sure he doesn’t get a positive feeling when I show him how frugal I can be, I need to work on figuring out how to get him to see it as a positive thing — rather than have him view it as, “look how much she had to scrimp and save in order to live on my measly income”, to view it as, “look how wise and frugal my wife is, to make my adequate income seem even larger” and even, “what a smart man I am, to have married such a woman!” 😀
Your Highness Kathy,
What a beautiful exposition of high wisdom turned into What Do I Do Next? I’m sure you have that figured out.
No doubt you already consider this, but I suggest you find ways to admire his every effort that helps to earn such a highly adequate income. Take the spotlight off frugality and spotlight your gratitude for who he is and what he does. It will enable you to find many ways to admire him. When he respects your frugality without you spotlighting it or trying to earn credit, he will respect you even more as a helpmate.
Guy
Sir Guy,
I don’t know about the other ladies, but I would sure love to read specific posts tackling the subjects of:
1)- must-ask questions during courtship,
2)- what to reply when he commonly tests our virtue (arriving late, offering to split the bill, pushing for sex, not picking us up for a date for example) and
3)- the difference (in explicit actions) between what shows real devotion versus pretend-like devotion.
Thank you so much!
These posts don’t answer your specific questions, but might be useful: “Measure of a Man,” “Does He Qualify for Husbanding?,” and the series on Virtual Virginity. Hope this helps!
Your Highness Tania,
Thank you. Men love it when pretty women help them.
Guy
Your Highness Isadora,
Re 1): That’s easy. Ask questions the answers to which reveal his character. To find out how, study these series: Chaste Courtship Works, Choices Program the Heart, Bright Side of Femininity, and Beware Red Flags.
Re 2): Disconnect your examples from ‘virtue’. Whatever he admires is virtuous. Your examples display lack of respect for you, which can be translated as lack of admiration. I suggest you search and study the many series that have ‘respect’ and ‘respectable’ in the title. I found at least 22.
Re 3): You must figure that out by judging a man’s intentions, motivations, truthful approach to life, sincerity about other things, and interests that reflect his character. I offer this without reflection on you, so don’t take it personal. The process of girls abstaining from sex teaches them to judge men appropriately and accurately. You may find help by studying the articles with titles that start with the word ‘Commitment’.
Guy
I am just wondering if women act like the mens these days because they are free to do so and maybe it is their nature after all.
I am not so sure but the male and female these are “games” in some sense. In the road, one has to choose between right side or the left side at any rate to pass smoothly. I think that life’s game is similar. As spirits, men and women are equal. In real world, they should choose different games and roles. Society can change if we find more equal strategies for sexes. But that is nowhere near any time near. I don’t think male and female homogeneous society can work with all this child rearing business, war, economy, stress, and malevolent people all around. If feminism ignores these facts, then it is of disservice to everyone involved including the woman… At any rate, I would appreciate comments on this…
Sir John,
Welcome aboard. It’s a great day when handsome guys show up willing to be harped at by pretty women, but I’m sure it won’t happen to you.
You’re right especially about the disservice caused by feminism. You can see the magnitude in the series Dark Side of Feminism listed in the CONTENTS page at blog top.
Guy
I once dated a man who payed for all of our dates but would later make comments like “I’m broke because I spend all of my money on SOMEBODY”. I was always appreciative(he even said I always acted appreciative) so I don’t know why he said these things. At first I would just laugh, but after a few of these remarks I started to feel guilty and told him if he doesn’t want to spend money on me then don’t. He would say “no no, I do, it’s fine.” but then continue to make the comments. I don’t think my response was ideal but I don’t know what response would be. Any suggestions?
Your Highness Anonymous,
Have you thought of this? The next time he offends, ask “Why do you wish to make me feel badly?” The second time say, “I have trouble admiring men that make me feel badly for what I had no control over.”
Guy
Thanks! Next time I’m faced with the situation (hopefully there won’t be one) I will surely try that.
The messages throughout this thread are wonderfully enlightening and encouraging. I’m very thankful. 🙂
Kurt’s opinion is extremely typical of young men today. It seems that they don’t understand that having the woman pay establishes a power dynamic that in the long run they do not want. At this point, I think I will only date older men. Much older. I want someone with an old fashioned sense of values.
Your Highness Girl,
You have a deliberate strategy for a very good reason, but it contains a weakness that can haunt you later.
Older men often never get tired of a younger woman. So, as you age, his eye starts wandering. It shouldn’t be a disqualifier, but learn early to discriminate commitment for a woman from devotion to you. (Several blog articles provide details.)
Guy
Very good point, and well taken 😉
I plan to age quite gracefully though, as my mom and gram have 🙂 I eat vegan; I’m a dancer….
I’m reading the rest of the comments. Where did we ever get the notion that expensive dinners and going to the movies is “courting” anyway. What happened to actually getting to know the other person. Shoulder to shoulder time. Rather than an expensive dinner, I would be so much more excited if a man said something like, “Let’s go for a walk” or “Let’s go to the lake. I want to take you to the lake.” And then I’d say, “Ok. I’ll pack us some sandwiches for lunch.” Why can’t we do things like that anymore these days?
Your Highness Girl,
You can have anything you want. However, if you fail to plan, you plan to fail. The blog has many articles about first and other dates. Review them and then plan for this. Between first meeting and his asking for first date, flood even the shortest dialogue with thoughts such as these:
+ Movies and expensive dinners are vastly overrated. Movies don’t let you and eating suppresses good chit chat.
+ Guys are never more handsome than when walking in the park, enjoying picnics by the sea, fishing from a boat, or just chatting over frozen yogurt.
Guy